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AUXLANG  December 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG December 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Occidental un lingue garantisantmen mort

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:45:24 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

Ken Caviness wrote:
 
> [kut]What _does_ bother me is when I or someone else points out a mistake, you
> don't say
>
> (1) "Ok, I (or an expert on the subject) will look it over and see if this
> should be changed",
 
Will you and Don do this with the racist slur on his page?
 
>
> or
> (2) "This is a historical quote, I can't change it, but I can footnote any
> questionable points",
 
Will you and Don put a footnote with the correction on that page just mentioned?
 
> or
> (3) "Sorry, I just don't have the time to look at this right now".
 
Do you have the time to translate for us what you say is no good? And, encourage
someone to take the time to correct the racist slur?
 
> Instead, you say "Great Big deal", it doesn't matter, and besides, it's
> true, or it's not as bad as what X said to Y.
 
And, you totally ignore that I did make changes, did get help, you did admit that
I was, etc. Do you forget that now?
It is actually no big deal at all, it is typical Esp responses with no facts.
Pick, pick pick over fonts and an x. But, where is the inaccuracy in what was/is
written?
 
> I find that just an teensy weensy bit offensive.
>
 
I find some of the responses like this the same. You clearly show nothing is "lost
in translation" but quibble about someone you think doesn't know Esp. How long
does someone have to know Esperanto before you say they know it? How perfect do
they have to be till you say their writing is ok to use? How critical would you be
of an Esperantist who wrote that? How many experienced Esperantists can write that
much Esperanto from scratch now? And, how much experience do they have to have
before you accept them as experienced?
 
> >And, how would putting in an X for KZ be a convenience?
>
> It's not, it's simply an error.  Using the word "convenience" Emerson was
> referring back to a previous post, but the joke falls flat unless you go
> back to the archives and find the message referred to.
 
And, I'm supposed to know he is joking. Give me the clue of how it was a joke. Did
he say it was? Let him explain what he meant, that I would/could understand.
 
> Anyway, it's simply
> an error, not a big deal, merely indicative of the many others in the article.
 
Ah, and the others are no big deal either, I perceive, then.
 
>
> >So, where is the inaccuracy in the article content about Esperanto?
>
> Well, keep copies of the things already mentioned, maybe someone with more
> time will add to the list.
 
Another avoiding of the question. Where is the inaccuracy in the CONTENT about
Esperanto? Not, where are the spelling mistakes? In the content, please.
 
> But I do think you need to (a) hire an expert
> (you might advertise on soc.culture.esperanto) or (b) get a dedicated
> Occidentalist who is also fluent in Esperanto to do it for free.
 
Still no comment about what is inaccurate about the content. One can quibble over
spelling all day, but that has not changed the content. exist still sounds like
ekzist and in this case still means the same thing. And, why don't you and others
who criticise Occidental with the things that Occidental is supposed to do or use,
but aren't even in Occidental, why don't you hire an expert to guide you? Why do I
have to hire an expert? If I have to, so should you. That's only fair.
 
> >And, as I asked Ken, what is it there that causes an Esperantist not to
> >be able to understand what is being said.
>
> And as I answered, I understood it.
 
You understood it? Well, now, that's more like it. So, all the rest is argument
with no substance, then.
 
> And I said to myself, take this with a
> grain (or many grains) of salt:  this person doesn't have enough knowledge
> of Esperanto to have a valid opinion comparing it to Occidental.  Shrug.
 
BINGO!! BINGO!! BINGO!! I've been waiting for this and it's finally here.
Then why do so many Esperantists with absolutely no experience with Occidental,
who can't write it, don't speak it, aren't fluent in it, don't use it, won't study
and apply it, think they can criticise Occidental? But, if a non Espist wants to
criticise Esp that's a different story, eh? All they've done in the past, which is
being carried on today, is to preach basic lies about Occidental. We already have
the proof on the racist thing, and other items, but no one has the guts to change
it. If the Esperantists can do that to Occidental, then this article done by
someone who has [to be humble and very conservative] gone to the trouble of
"trying" to learn Esperanto in order to be able to write to the Esperantists has a
right to express his ideas in the Esperanto he knows. That has an extreme amount
of more credibility than Esperantist arguments done by Esperantists without any
experience with Occ. How about you going to the effort to learn Occidental so you
can write me in Occidental and explain your stance? That is what the writer of
that article did. Would you give you opponent the same courtesy?
 
This turmoil over a simple page in Esperanto promoting Occ. is only a silly
argument against a perceived threat to Esp's supposed place as the top dog. The
Esp's, at least some, have always feared the "competition". Did you know they were
actually afraid to let one single man, de Wahl, attend an Esp conference with
1,000 Espists there. What did they have to fear? Why, just one man was going to
overturn them? And, this is only one page seen by virtually no one compared to all
the Esperanto pages out there. So, what's to fear?
 
Get beyond the put down of individuals and spelling and supersigns, and quit
saying, because someone can't write perfect Esperanto that what they say is not
valid. That, frankly, is a weak argument or defense. One can't argue a language's
weaknesses based on someone's personality. I don't read De Wahl ever saying,
Esperanto is no good because Z was a Jew, or Polish, or a racist biggot. But, I
have read several things by Esperantists saying that kind of thing about de Wahl,
that he was a "racist" and more. All untruths too, no less. Why would people do
that unless there really was something to fear? And, I hope Don doesn't try to
bring up the suppose quote that says Esp was no good because the Nazis or Germans
outlawed it. It isn't even in the magazine as Don thought it was. The statement
doesn't even exist. Occidental, by the way, was also outlawed.
 
Again, I ask you Ken, translate the article into English for the list so you can
dramatically show us how inaccurate the content is about Esperanto. Then we can
argue whether the article is any good or not.
 
> >Esperanto can't be read by
> >non-Esperantists so Esperantists don't have to be worried about being ill
> spoken of
> >to the world in their own language since the world can't read it. This
> nonsense
> >about "fonts" and the letter "x" does no damage at all to the article's
> content. In
> >fact, this kind of arguing only substantiates Occidental's tenet more.]
>
> That was the whole idea of putting it in, most likely.
 
The page actually is a promotion for Occidental not so much a diatribe against
Esp. And, "the spelling was done so Esperantists would have an easier time of
reading Esperanto by helping them along with spellings they might recognize if
they were new to Esperanto. [<smile, grin, >] since it is an artificial language
and many beginners I understand need that kind of help."
 
However, I could, if you wish, begin putting up all the arguments here that the
Occidentalists made against Esp. And, you would find that the arguments are about
the workings of the language, not the "racism" of the man who created it. Or,
about misspellings of Occidental words by Espists. When one stands on that kind of
argument, and over fonts, and spellings, then the real house is a house of cards
and will have problems when the public finds out about the cards. That might be
more interesting than this silly gripe over fonts and an x. i.e. Put up the full
texts about Esp and seeing the public's reaction when they see Esp's cards. Anyone
want to see the complete texts by De Wahl and others on Esperanto?
I doubt it. But, you never know.
 
All the best,
Al l sue,
Amic,
Enjoy,
Etc.,
Bob, x+0~

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