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AUXLANG  December 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG December 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Scripts and outlook (was Re: something dumb) : )

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:27:29 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
 
> Je 10:16 atm 12/17/98 +0100, vi skribis:
>
> Mike, on the general question of whether Esperantists are more concerned
> with Esperantists than with non-Esperantists ... yes. There is something
> wrong with this?
 
It all depends, it Esperanto is to be a hobby a la stamp collecting, then no, not
at all.
 
If Esperanto is supposed to live up to it's earlier name 'la internacia lingvo',
then it doesn't help. My whole point in this post (despite the gratuitous, casual
put-downs for which I have such a natural flair) is this:
 
Esperanto in it's current _social_ structure, does not interact with other
languages and people who know the language, from my (granted none-too omniscient)
viewpoint use it entirely between themselves for socializing and do not integrate
the language into their professional/public lives, which is a necessary step if the
language is to grow beyond the most motivated enthusiasts.
 
 
> Our people are our greatest resource; abandon them, betray
> them, and we are left with _nothing_.
 
Whoa boy, slow down!!!! Who's betraying who? Who's abandoning who? I'll ask you to
clarify this and leave it at that for now.
 
> Mario Pei complained in his book
> about the "'Inefficacy' of Movements", and he may well have been right, but
> I suspect that he was also familiar with the expression "the only game in
> town", which is essentially what we have.
 
Then I hope Bob gets some stuff goin' in a hurry. A successful alternative to
Esperanto might be just what's needed here.
 
 
> You are a linguist, and I would expect you to realize that languages are
> not just collections of letters, phonemes, morphemes, syntactic rules and
> the like; they are _people_. Without people, they are footnotes
> (interesting to a few, not to most) in books that are generally kept back
> in the library stacks. They are, in one sense, a contract between their users.
 
No, this is where Z-hof got it all wrong. This model assumes that the language
exists apart from the users who agree to use it. Languages exists within individual
people. Communication between people is a dynamic, unstable process that requires
_negotiation_ and not dictums from on high (from you or me or anyone else).
 
> One of the reasons for failure (of other planned languages , mike)was the
> inability to understand this simple
> fact: people who use a language depend on it to be trustworthy -- i.e., at
> least in its basics the language tomorrow will be the same as the language
> today.
 
This is an entirely different issue. Remember I'm not a reformer, I have no
intention of "reforming" any slightest bit of Esperanto. On the other hand I see no
vital need to conform to every tiniest bit of established usage myself.. BTW I do
realize I'm taking a bigger burden of keeping communication going  on myself when I
depart from some types of established usage. My basic rule is, if there's an
alternative I like better, I use it. I do not see what harm this approach would do
to Eo if practiced by other people as well.
 
 
> Ido is probably the best example of what happens when you abandon
> this concept; you might gain a few adherents today (Ido actually did pretty
> well, for a decade),
 
My understanding was that WWI killed off the biggest Ido promoters and essentially
gutted the movement.
 
> (snip) until then we need to go about promoting planned languages in
> the traditional way -- i.e., by convincing people, little by little, year
> by year -- and in our turn remaining faithful to what we promise them.
 
More Zamenhof-speak. First, most people aren't sheep who are helpless to
communicate without a strong Fundamento to keep them from losing their way.When I
started learning Esperanto no one promised my _anything_ (same as with Polish,
Hungarian, Aymara). I've learned some vocabulary some grammar, I like some of it,
am neutral about some of it and dislike some of it (pretty average for any
language). My ability to use this knowledge to communicate with other people is up
to the other people and me, and not a Fundamento.
 
Many of my students have spent four or more years learning "English" from British
textbooks and Polish ones (which strongly favor British vocab, spelling, etc.).
Often, I'm the first native speaker they encounter. Much to their surprise,
although (by now) I understand the British vocabulary they've learned I don't use
it myself and stick to SAE usage. I don't tell them to change their vocabulary but
I don't adjust mine. They're often not enchanted that they have to learn _new_
words for many familiar items and that they have no guarantee that that will be
enough either, that other speakers from other countries are liable to have yet
other words for these same items.  Do they like this? No, not especially. Can they
deal with it? Yes. This state of affairs certainly hasn't harmed English.
 
As for the "little by little" model.
In the late 70's in south Florida (from whence I hail) it was quite easy to listen
to the English languager service of Radio Moscow on AM radio for a few years,
courtesy of Senor Castro. First out of curiosity and later out ofmorbid fascination
I listened to it quite frequently. Many times commentators liked to compare the
rapid-fire boom'n'bust cycles of capitalism with the slow but steady pace of
socialism, little by little, year by year, slow steady growth. They don't appear to
have been right. I suspect that the same is true with planned languages.
 
 
> As far as the alphabet is concerned, history is against you. The two most
> successful planned IALs in terms of numbers (Volapu"k and Esperanto) both
> use a non-standard (i.e. non-English) alphabet. (snip)
 
> Those planned languages, and their
> numbers are legion, which used a strictly English alphabet are largely gone
> and forgotten.
 
More than once, Don, you've attributed things I've written as over-reliance on
English. Let;s look here at the Eo alphabet I use, which is as follows:
 
a b c ch d e f g gh h i j jh k l m n o p r s sh t u v w z
 
no q, x or y and four two-symbol letters (ch, gh, jh, sh). NB when c, g, j or s is
followed by h as in long- + har-, which only happens in a few compound words, they
are separated by a dash, already a well-established part of Eo punctuation (ie
long-hara, chas-hundo ktp)
 
If this is the "English" alphabet then I've missed something or other. And this is
_easily_ used (no qualifications whatsoever) on _any_ writing/printing system that
uses any Latinish alphabet and will doubtless be so no matter what sort of
technological innovations await us in the future as long as Latinish alphabets are
in use (certainly not true of the tradtional Eo alphabet).
 
Amikel,
Mikefarris

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