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AUXLANG  December 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG December 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Scripts and outlook (was Re: something dumb) : )

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:11:37 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

Michael Farris wrote:
 
> Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>
> > Je 10:16 atm 12/17/98 +0100, vi skribis:
> [kut]
>
> > Mario Pei complained in his book
> > about the "'Inefficacy' of Movements", and he may well have been right, but
> > I suspect that he was also familiar with the expression "the only game in
> > town", which is essentially what we have.
>
> Then I hope Bob gets some stuff goin' in a hurry. A successful alternative to
> Esperanto might be just what's needed here.
 
I think  what is planned beginning in January, will begin to assuage this idea that
there is only one ballgame in town. There has already been an interesting shift in
concepts and attitudes that I've noticed. And, the preliminary response to the idea of
the Auli University on the internet has been exceptionally positive. More about it in
January.
Also, once these myths about Occidental that have been carried on for the past 60-70
are shown to be what they are, myths, then former critics etal will begin to look at
Occidental seriously versus the present day superficial and "hurry, don't stop and look
at it, it may be stronger than we think" attitude will certainly disappear. Especially
since some extremely valuable information is now going to be presented to the world
through Occidental. Thus, actually using an IAL for the purpose it was intended,
communication to and with the world, versus discussing the innerworkings of each
language. This will be, IMO a major step forwar. And, along with that, using the
language to reach BEYOND the "club" to the world itself. What most Occidentalists,
Espists, Idoists, ILaists, etc. have done till now mainly seems to be "preach to the
choir". It is time to go beyond that now, and so we are. What other, of the IAL's do we
know today, with the complete grammar and vocabulary in place can do this so well? i.e.
Go to the world in that language WITHOUT the need to translate everthing said to the
world? I know of only one that fits in the "golden mean" or the "middle road" that can
immediately to that. Do you know another?
 
> > You are a linguist, and I would expect you to realize that languages are
> > not just collections of letters, phonemes, morphemes, syntactic rules and
> > the like; they are _people_. Without people, they are footnotes
> > (interesting to a few, not to most) in books that are generally kept back
> > in the library stacks. They are, in one sense, a contract between their users.
>
> No, this is where Z-hof got it all wrong. This model assumes that the language
> exists apart from the users who agree to use it. Languages exists within individual
> people. Communication between people is a dynamic, unstable process that requires
> _negotiation_ and not dictums from on high (from you or me or anyone else).
 
This is one of the reasons why de Wahl clearly and specifically stated that he was not
the Pope over Occidental.
 
> > One of the reasons for failure (of other planned languages , mike)was the
> > inability to understand this simple
> > fact: people who use a language depend on it to be trustworthy -- i.e., at
> > least in its basics the language tomorrow will be the same as the language
> > today.
>
> This is an entirely different issue. Remember I'm not a reformer, I have no
> intention of "reforming" any slightest bit of Esperanto. On the other hand I see no
> vital need to conform to every tiniest bit of established usage myself.. BTW I do
> realize I'm taking a bigger burden of keeping communication going  on myself when I
> depart from some types of established usage. My basic rule is, if there's an
> alternative I like better, I use it. I do not see what harm this approach would do
> to Eo if practiced by other people as well.
 
This is one of the reasons I like Occ so much. It needs no "reforming" to work right
now. Plus, it's creator hoped to insure, not only that it remained stable, but in such
a way that natural change and improvement would take place over time. And, it has and
will. This is certainly different from "reforming" it. Interesting, neither Occidental,
nor RLR need reforming in order to be immediately usable today. Yet, all the others
constantly talk about, or constantly strive for, reforming. Even ILa, which is
currently going on as we speak in some circles. Occidental does not need to, nor does
RLR. Maybe that speaks to a very important issue which some do not want to consider or
admit.
 
Here's how I see things at the moment. The cries from various factions say:
 
Esperanto, needs reform.
Ido, needs reform.
Novial, needs lots of reform and change.
Ila, needs more consideration of internationality, and not limiting words only to three
romance languages.
Occidental, use it, it's ready..
RLR, use it, it's ready.
 
> [kut]
>
> > As far as the alphabet is concerned, history is against you. The two most
> > successful planned IALs in terms of numbers (Volapu"k and Esperanto) both
> > use a non-standard (i.e. non-English) alphabet. (snip)
>
> > Those planned languages, and their
> > numbers are legion, which used a strictly English alphabet are largely gone
> > and forgotten.
>
> More than once, Don, you've attributed things I've written as over-reliance on
> English. Let;s look here at the Eo alphabet I use, which is as follows:
 
Interesting. In my readings about both languages, it was not the alphabets that caught
peoples attention. What caught their attention was the concepts presented. Each, for
its time was a major advance in understanding and practicality. It was only a miracle
that the alphabets did not interfere with the development and usage of both languages.
Their superior principles for the times they were developed in, outweighed the problems
with their alphabets. I suspect, they probably would have grown even better if it
hadn't been for the alphabets they had. They would have been even stronger. But, today,
this "fault" of both of them, in a new age of greater understanding in the IAL field,
causes, even in the public's eye, this relatively minor obstacle to stand out like a
sore thumb. Occidental was the next major advance, which, in spite of what some think
or hope, has not been supplanted nor surpassed, as is being explained quite thoroughly
and clearly on the lingue list. And, even with Occidental, one of the grumbling points
with it has to do with accents. That's why de Wahl was wise in saying, here is why we
use them, but, they are not mandatory if you don't feel you need them, as long as you
get your message across. He also made sure the language was workable with other items
usable but not necessary nor mandatory. Such as double consonants. Why did he do this?
He taught these things helped in communication because they were generally more a part
of the way people communicated with their [then] current language experience in the
occident. But, he made sure they were not mandatory, and the language workable with out
them, so that, once a certain growth was attained, the rest of the world could then be
incorporated into Occidental. Neat eh?
[kut]
 
Al l sue,
Amic,
Bob, x+0~
 
x = RLR
+ = Occidental
0 = cosmos
~ = glotta
 
i.e. an international speaker using both Rap Lin Ri and Occidental. And, these don't
come from me. Actually, the ~ should be inside the 0.

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April 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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