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AUXLANG  December 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG December 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Scripts and outlook (was Re: something dumb) : )

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:18:11 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

Je 08:27 ptm 12/20/98 +0100, Mike FARRIS skribis:
 
[Reaction to just two minor points...]
 
>Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>
>> Ido is probably the best example of what happens when you abandon
>> this concept; you might gain a few adherents today (Ido actually did=
 pretty
>> well, for a decade),
>
>My understanding was that WWI killed off the biggest Ido promoters and=20
>essentially
>gutted the movement.
>
Ido, as far as I can tell, maxxed out around 1920 or thereabouts;
Occidental, not WWI, was what did it in. Couturat was killed in an auto
accident during mobilization in 1914, but Jespersen and de Beaufront (among
others) went on for years, Jespersen abandoning the language in the late
twenties and both men dying later.
 
Here, for those who don't have the work in question available, is what
Ernst DREZEN writes about the later history of Ido in "Historio de
Mondolingvo" (I omit Drezen's numerous footnotes):
 
"Couturat's death, which occurred because of an auto accident in August,
1914, caused a sensible (senteblan) blow to the entire Ido movement. During
the world war only a single Idist magazine appeared, in Sweden.
 
"Only after the end of the war did some reinvigoration (vigli=F8o) begin in
the Ido camp. In the years 1920-1922 for a time it seemed that the Ido
movement might in some reasons overcome that of Esperanto. The Idists
undertook systematic agitation, linked with the rumored realized acceptance
of Ido by a special commission of the Communist International. But the
Comintern Executive Committee issued a special clarification that this
acceptence had never been decided.
 
"After 1921 international Idist congresses were arranged. Each of them was
attended by a very small number of participants which decreased from year
to year."
 
(In a footnote here, Drezen writes that "In the VIIIth international Idist
congress, held in Freiburg (Baden) in August, 1929, only around 30-40
people took part". Two pages earlier, however, a group photo of the ninth
world Ido congress in Sopron, Hungary, shows a group of 50-60 people. It,
too, is attributed to 1929; presumably, there is a misprint in one of the
years.)
 
Skipping over a section called "The reform projects of the period
1919-1926" we come to "The present state of the Ido movement" ("present"
presumably referring to the beginning of the 1930s, when the first edition
of this book appeared):
 
"The growth in number of the essentially little different reform projects
and proposals encouraged L. de Beaufront and other leading Idists to
protest against further reform of the language and propose that the period
of stability, established in 1913, by continued. This proposal was voted on
at the end of 1924 in the International Ido Union. Around 500 Idists
participated in the vote. As a result of the vote, the period of stability
was continued for two more years. But a large part of the voters (149 to
270) showed themselves desirous of further reform studies.
 
"After the 1914-1918 war only around 10 magazines appeared in Ido at
various times, some of them once every two or more months, with a size of
4-8 pages in small book format. These magazines did not exist from
subscription income, but from various subsidies and donations. The
appearance of Occidental rocked the Idist organizations. Many theorists,
who had once departed from the Esperanto movement for Ido, now left the Ido
camp for the more natural appearing and theoretically more nuanced=
 Occidental.
 
"The year 1926 was a critical year for the Ido movement. The main Ido
magazines saw the risk of complete cessation, and strong schismatic
tendencies were growing among the Idists. Beginning in the year 1927, the
official organ of the Ido Union and of the Ido Academy, "Mondo", dedicated
its pages to free discussions about reforms in the language and became an
organ of a new organization, 'Solimura' -- the society for a universal
rational language. There began to appear in the magazine, alongside
articles in Ido, also articles in other neo-Latin and neo-Romance
international languages. And finally the magazine mentioned, at the
beginning of 1929, went over to propagandizing the new language created by
O. Jespersen -- 'Novial'.
 
"About the factual scale of the Idist movement, we can judge only
approximately. In the full global address-book of 1923, in which no fewer
than half the total quantity were the so-called "dead spirits" and even
simple Esperantists, the names of 4000 Idists were printed. But the
membership of the international Ido association in the same year, 1923, was
not more than 600 people. The All-Russian Idist Union had in April 1923 73
members and 47 candidates. Later information was not published by the Ido
organizations.
 
"An Idist Fr. Buckel in 1930 communicated that in 1928 the progressive
fraction of the Idists (led by Ahlberg of Stockholm) consisted of 147
members, and the conservative fraction (led by Noetzli of Zurich) of 120
members. Fr. Buckel in the same place discovered the secret that the
largest national Ido Association, the German, had en 1926 only 145 members
and that the International Union of Idists, with its center in Paris, had
in 1930 scarcely 500 members.
 
"During the years 1928-1930 the crisis in the Ido movement became sharp.
The weak movement fractionated into progressives, aiming to go on reforming
the language, and conservatives, opposed to any further reforms. The
ideological leader of this conservative party became -- an irony of fate --
the father of Ido himself, L. de Beaufront. In the beginning of 1931 there
was only one bimonthly Ido magazine worthy of attention, "Progreso",
published in Paris, but this magazine, too, had become strongly opposed by
the Ido conservatives."
 
This should indicate, I think, that while WWI did not particularly help Ido
(just as it did not particularly help Esperanto), Ido's collapse was a
product of the roaring twenties.
 
>> Those planned languages, and their
>> numbers are legion, which used a strictly English alphabet are largely=
 gone
>> and forgotten.
>
>More than once, Don, you've attributed things I've written as over-reliance=
 on
>English. Let;s look here at the Eo alphabet I use, which is as follows:
>
>a b c ch d e f g gh h i j jh k l m n o p r s sh t u v w z
>
>no q, x or y and four two-symbol letters (ch, gh, jh, sh). NB when c, g, j=
=20
>or s is
>followed by h as in long- + har-, which only happens in a few compound=20
>words, they
>are separated by a dash, already a well-established part of Eo punctuation=
 (ie
>long-hara, chas-hundo ktp)
>
>If this is the "English" alphabet then I've missed something or other. And=
=20
>this is
>_easily_ used (no qualifications whatsoever) on _any_ writing/printing=20
>system that
>uses any Latinish alphabet and will doubtless be so no matter what sort of
>technological innovations await us in the future as long as Latinish=20
>alphabets are
>in use (certainly not true of the tradtional Eo alphabet).
>
Looks like the English alphabet to me. Not only are there no "special
characters" such as are found in almost every other Latin alphabet
(including the relatively newly-hatched ones such as Turkish), but at least
two of your digraphs, "ch" and "sh", are typically English, and when they
are used in most other Latin-written languages, have quite different values
(particularly "ch", which is, in many languages, the same as the Esperanto
=B6 or, if you prefer, h^) while the values you give them are often written
differently (e.g. cz, sz in Polish; I particularly like the Scandinavian=
 'sj').
 
I'd be interested, by the way, in your reaction to my main point -- that
planned languages that _haven't_ used special characters have _never_ had
the success of at least a couple of planned languages that _do_. If this
were an important matter to the average joe out there looking for a planned
language to learn, you'd think that the shoe would be on the other foot.
=20
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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December 2000, Week 5
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