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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: prototypes and questions (fwd)

From:

STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:03:48 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

>JAMES CHANDLER said:
 
>Stan Mulaik rote:
>
>> Again, James, NOT at all!  Spanish and Portugese were joined as one
>language.
>> And if there were 4 variants, including English, English often was more
>> Latin and less Romance than the rest and had the effect of pulling the
>> prototype back to the Latin common to them all as opposed to a Romance
>> form common just to the Romance languages.
>
>What you describe here sounds like the worst of both worlds.  Speakers of
>Romanic languages have their modern, sufficient and efficient Romanic forms
>dragged back towards archaic defunct ones by the effect of English.  On the
>other hand, English speakers find almost none of their own Germanic forms,
>and instead, for the roots that are not Latin-derived and common to
>English and Romanic, have to contend with a whole load of Latinisms
>(etiam, ecce, igitur, illac, nemo, nondum, nonne etc., etc., etc.).
 
Here you are conflating the use of these Latin particles (which are not
exactly the prototypes of the particles in the modern Romance languages)
with the use of well-established prototypes in the rest of the international
vocabulary. There is a reason for "etiam, ecce, igitur, illac, nemo,
nondum, onne etc." In the case of finding international forms for the
particles, the limitation was that these should be Romance to make the
language appear coherent. But when this was  coupled with the fact that
only three romance language groups were present in the linguistic base of
Interlingua, it meant that any time the three Romance languages did not
agree on having common variants with common prototypes, no solution was
possible by the principles of eligibility and the standardization by the
prototype used to determine forms in the vocabulary. In those cases
Gode reasoned that supplementary procedures had to be used. He reasoned
that Latin had a form of internationality in that Latin dictionaries
existed everywhere in the world. Latin was still being taught in various
countries as well, especially in Northern Europe at that time. So, he
chose Latin particles as solutions for these cases.  But they do not
stand on a par with the remaining prototypes.  He also included
numerous other particles from the various international auxiliary
language systems in the Interlingua English Dictionary, giving users
the freedom to choose. Many of these particles were Occidental or
similar to them, and many Occidentalists who came over to Interlingua
used them instead.
 
Now, I personally do not use those Latin particles you have listed above,
with the exception of "ecce", which is supported by modern Italian's
"ecco" and which is prototypically absorbed but still remains vestigially
in a number of French particles like "ici", "celle", "ce".  I tend to
use Romance particles.  In the past many of us have chosen these, as they
seem to have been done in other auxiliary language systems in an
impressionist way, like the use of "ma" instead of "sed". But just
recently it dawned on me that an equally reasonable supplementary solution
would have been to include more Romance language groups in the determination
of international forms with common prototypes for the particles.  For
example, I have determined that Romanian, Italian, Catalan/Provencial,
Spanish and Portugese all support prototypes *aquelle instead of the
latin "ille", *aqueste alongside "iste" and "este" which now exist in
the IED (Interlingua English Dictionary), and "*aqui" alongside "hic"
and "ci" (the latter being an impressionistic solution taken from French)
which now exist in the IED.  The reason for these nonsolutions in the
case of the particles is that French was derived from a dialect of
popular spoken Latin in the northern regions of Gaul that was somewhat
idiosyncratic and as a result was out of step with most of the rest of
the regions of the Roman world.  But in those days (around 0 - 100 a.d.)
you would not have greatly noticed the difference.  So, there are
prototype solutions common to three or more Romance languages for many
more of the particles.  That this alternative supplementary solution was
not used by IALA is probably because at the time there were not available
to them worked-out etymologies for the particles in these other languages.
I found a book published in French in 1946 while I was in New York City
in 1961, which is a detailed study of the origins and development of
the Romance languages and their lexical and grammatical features. This
book describes the basis for the protypes *aquelle, *aqueste, *aqui I
have cited above. But the primary study on the particles was done by
Dr. Gode in 1940, and he does not cite this work or an early version of it
as the basis for his solutions. He felt compelled to fall back on Latin.
 
>
>> As for Russian.  Once three of the primary languages English, French,
>> Italian, Spanish/Portugese have common variants, either Russian has
>> a similar variant or a slavic word, which is not international.  I don't
>> doubt that 50% of the Ido basic roots are in Russian.  A similar thing
>> likely is true of Interlingua.
>
>This is probably a fair point.  I don't know what proportion of the
>equivalent Ia roots are common to Russian (would somebody like to do a
>count?), but it is probably not too dissimilar to the figure for Ido.
>However, without including Russian in the selection process to find the
>most international root, there is no guarantee of this: it is just happy
>coincidence.
 
The point is that if Russian had been used as you say as one of the
primary languages searched rather than as a backup language, there would
have been only a miniscule difference in the outcome, but there would
have been a significant increase in the labor.  In order for Russian
to contribute one of three variants having a common prototype, it would
have had to have borrowed a Latin or Romance word, and so its prototype
would have been the prototype of the other two languages; or it would
have had to have borrowed a word from German and English each having
a common prototype (usually a modern one) [an example is "blocada" from
English blockade and German Blockade with Russian blokada]; or it would
have had to have been a slavic/Russian word lent to at least two of
the other source languages.  But purely Slavic words which were not
lent to German, English or any of the Romance languages would not
count as international words.  It would not be a word in the Western
European cultural sphere which is the basis for internationality and
worldwide use. The only other possibilities are words from outside
all of the source languages that would have entered Russian and two of
the other languages. And these would be captured by the procedure.
 
Stan Mulaik

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October 2001, Week 1
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April 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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