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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Prototypes and questions

From:

STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:32:17 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (146 lines)

>From: Paul O Bartlett <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:      Re: Orthography in Eo and Ia: Re: prototypes and questions
>
>> Paul,
>>   I don't think Gode was arguing that we go back to medieval Latin--
>> simply that Medieval Latin functioned in its day as the
>> international auxiliary language.  And if we still had it, then we
>> wouldn't need to try to develop a new one.
>
>    I did not say the Gode claimed that we should go back to Latin.  My
>point was that medieval Latin was an elitist language, and it seems to
>me that putting Interlingua in a place comparable to that of Latin on
>the grounds of it being something like the "common linguistic heritage
>of western civilization" was similarly to assign an elitist position
>to Interlingua.
 
Classical Latin might be called the language of the elite in Roman,
medieval and Renaissance periods, since it was the formal written,
adminstrative language as opposed to the popular everyday languge.  But
back in Rome and even up to about 800 there was not a sharp distinction
made between spoken "Latin" and written "Latin"  It was a kind of
continuum. We have the same thing today. The way teenagers write and
the way they talk to one another are often two different things. In Rome
everytime you went to write down something in your language, you wrote
it down the way you were taught to write it down, even if it diverged
from the way you spoke.  But after the Empire in the West was established
widely in Western Europe after Charlemagne around 800, the Church began
consolidating the administration.  And that meant that written administration
was again written in variants of Classical Latin.  And they began to
have problems with priests from different parts of this empire trying
to converse because they spoke Latin in such a different manner. So,
they called for a standardization of the phonetic interpretation of
written text. But they realized that everyone spoke the written
language differently, even used different words for the same written
passages.  So, they looked for a region that had preserved the
spoken Latin of yore and turned to the British, who only spoke Latin
in the Church, to send out priests to educate priests in the rest of
the empire in the phonetic pronunciation.  And lo and behold everyone
suddenly realized that they weren't speaking Latin as they had thought
but some other language.   And when they tried to apply the same
phonetic rules of Latin to their own speech, they got quite different
words. And at that point a consciousness of their own regional dialects
as languages occurred, and the Romance languages as separate entities were
born.
 
I don't get your basis for calling "Interlingua" elitist if it represents
our common linguistic heritage.  If English shares common features and
word origins with other European languages, how does that make the
establishment of the common forms "elitist"?
 
> Various educated anglophones, at least (including
>myself), have remarked almost ad nauseam that Interlingua is not as
>easily usable without prior training as sometimes claimed.  So then
>what becomes of this much-vaunted vocabulary?
 
That is probably truer of you than others, so I wouldn't judge everything
by your own case.  And it may be truer of Americans and maybe even
British.  It may be even truer of educated Americans today than previously,
because we do not experience other languages and get preparation in
trying to understand them.  But I have absolutely no problem in conversing
or writing to speakers of Romance languages in Interlingua, even if they've
never seen it before.  They understand it.  Try it yourself.  You write
good Interlingua.  Go to some of the newsgroups like soc.culture.catalan,
or soc.culture.spain, or soc.culture.france and see if you can strike
up a conversation in Interlingua and they in their own language.
 
>
>> But he does argue that there is an international vocabulary that
>> draws  its material mostly from the well of Latin and the Romance
>> languages descended from it (as well as, today, English, in that
>> new international role).
>
>    I don't deny that there is some sort of more-or-less "international
>vocabulary" derived from Latin (and Latinized Greek).  However, I was
>picking up on what I thought was James Chandler's point of -- to use my
>expression -- So What?  In and of itself such a vocabulary may be more
>or less -- and often less, I would say -- understandable to some people
>in western cultures, but that in and of itself proves nothing.  Even
>the IED had to have a grammar to "operate" the vocabulary.
 
But the existence of an object is distinct from any uses that may be
made of it. We often find objects and then figure out ways of making
a use of them for our purposes.
 
You don't need to use the dictionary as a dictionary of a language.
You could use the IED in a course to teach people about the international
vocabulary and about the origins of words in their own languages.
You could use the Gode-Blair grammar as the basis for a simple language
to help facilitate their learning the international vocabulary. It
helps to learn a vocabulary if you can put it to some use.  You could
then show them that they could figure out what people were saying
when you gave them text in French or Italian and asked them to use
their knowledge of the common romance prototypes as given by the
Interlingua words to figure out the meanings of the Romance language
texts.  There are lots of uses for the international vocabulary,
but its existence is different from a use you might give to it.
 
>
>  So such a vocabulary more or less exists?  So What?  Why should its
>mere existence prove anything other than its existence.  Just as I
>think that the Jespersen Criterion (as I have called it, and which I
>have stated that I think is unworkable) needs to be justified as the
>basis for an IAL, so also I think (apparently with James) that the
>existence of this so-called international vocabulary has to be
>justified as the basis for an IAL.
 
Well, certainly IALA had as its reason to be, to create an auxiliary
language. But with that in mind it became apparent to the Committee
on Aggreement that working on the basis of mere impressions of what
was international form was not sufficient. Too many auxiliary language
inventors were coming up with and arguing violently over different
conceptions of what was the common international form. (They all agreed
that a big advantage lay in getting the international forms because
that meant you could draw on the transfer of training from the
mother tongue to the auxiliary language). But there had to be an
objective basis for arriving at a standardized form, otherwise you
have these eternal disputes.  So if you could think that there was
an objective form to be found in the common cause for the similarity
between variant words of similar meaning in different languages, then
you would use that as your basis for standardization. That was the
prototype form. And using philological methods you could determine
to a high degree in most cases what the prototype form was. It
was not to be the most ancient prototype form, but historically
the most recent.   But in many cases the prototype was not just based
on a particular word's prototype, but on common prototype forms across
many words in derivational series. That allowed you to regularize the
series on the same prototype forms and to use the same affixes with
different words (because the affixes were also determined prototypically).
This often pushed the prototypes selected back to forms that were
historically earlier than those for specific words because some
words (even across several languages) in a given derivational
series might evolve more than others in the series.
 
>
>    The more I see of Interlingua and Esperanto, the more I tend
>to like Ido. ;-)
 
Well, if you are more satisfied with that, and you can learn it better,
then indeed go use it. But who are you going to use it with?  I tell you
I can't read Ido at sight, and I don't think many Romance speakers can
either.  So you can only communicate with other Ido users who have
spent some time learning it. That may be satisfying enough for you.
If it is, then do it.
 
Stan Mulaik

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March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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