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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Orthography in Eo and Ia: Re: prototypes and questions

From:

STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:15:11 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (183 lines)

Bob Petry might be interested in this.
 
I have in my possession "Spiritu de Occidental: Li Ovre de Edgar de Wahl",
published by the Institute Occidental Chapelle VD Svissia in 1938.  L. M.
de Guesnet sent it to me back in the 1960s when we were corresponding.
 
In there is a copy of a segment of a letter to de Wahl from a "Sr. Creux"
a Swiss.  He wrote:
 
"Li regul ingeniosi que voi dona por li formation del supin del verbes
finient per -ER es bon, ma it demanda un adjunction porque noi posse
haver ancor plu multi infinitives in su forme latin e international,
com: ager, scriber, dicer, ducer, facer, unger; junger (dis,con),
traher (dis,con, sub...), absorber, diriger, distribuer, leger,
reger, docer, perciper, proteger etc."
 
"Omni ti verbes dona li derivates international per li regul general:
Adjunger T al radicale + secuer li principie del consonantic attraction, it
es:
 
                     {     c, g, h fi (+) c = ct
                     {     ig, ic   "    ec = ect
       ante T       -{     b        "     p = pt
                     {     m        =    em = empt (emer - emption)
                     {     n      resta   n = nt (retener - retention,-tor).
 
"Noi have dunque: ag-er - action, or iv; scrib-er = script-ion, ura, or;
dic-er = dict-ion, -iv; item duc-er - ductor ...; fac-er = fact-or, -ion,
-ure; sorber = absorption; diriger = direct-ion, -or; distribu -er =
distribut-ion; leg-er = lect-ion, lect-ur; reger = rect-ion, -or;
doc-er = doct-or; percip-er - percept-ion, iv; proteger = protect-or, -ion,
-ive, etc.  Talmen Occidental fi (+) plu natural e conserva su
principie: "respectar li naturalita' e li regularita'.  A Creux.
 
DeWahl's response was that the rule is ingeneous but is too difficult for
an international language destined to be used not only by educated people
but by persons of low instruction.  And the rules are too complicated,
and the result isn't as valuable as Sr. C. thinks because the infinitives
of Occidental now are only less Latin, but not less natural.
 
Well Creux would have turned Occidental into Interlingua before its time.
And his argument is both naturality and regularity.  But de Wahl was
hung up on helping the poorly instructed to learn their vocabulary by
rules, and he wanted them to be as simple as possible, even if the result
was not causally the basis for the internationality between similar
variants in the modern languages, which the Latin prototypes in many
cases are.  But Occidental can be less of interest to European teachers
today who would want to teach the common lexical heritage in their
languages, because it less accurately represents that heritage after
distorting it with the Rule of E. de Wahl. Creux had an eye for what
was the basis for the similarity between words, and even noted that the
proposal stood for naturality and regularity.
 
The Grammar of Gode and Blair, written to provide a grammar for using
the Interlingua-English Dictionary as the vocabulary of a language,
has a chapter in the back on the Double-Stem Verbs. Actually calling
them this has nothing to do with their function as verbs, but with
the use of the stems in derivational series.  One could have easily
said, "double stemmed derivational series".
 
Interlingua includes the second "irregular" stem in certain derived
nouns and adjectives.  These exist to prevent what otherwise would be
"unnatural" or seemingly distorted forms that would result from the
usual rules. For example, "scriber" > "scribitura" instead of "scriptura";
"collider" > "collidition" instead of "collision", "incider" > "incidition"
instead of "incision".  Gode and Blair say that such forms are not "wrong"
but they are not optimal, perhaps usable where some stylistic purpose is
required.
 
But the "irregular" second stem really involves few difficulties and
greatly facilitates the process of derivation.  For speakers of English,
they would rather get "collision" in some way from "collider" (they
have both "collide" and "collision" in English).  Hence the search for
rules.
 
Gode and Blair note that active word building is not done in a vacuum.
It's rather the problem of fitting a new formation into a pattern of
several familiar ones.  For example, if one needs an adjective to go
with "extraher" ('to extract'), one will spontaneously coin the word
"extractive", not because of some laborious result of adding -ive to
some transformation of the verb "extraher", but because of the existence
already of the pattern of words like "extractor", "extraction", "extrahente".
The new formation "extractive" is not - psychologically and pedagogically
speaking - derived from an isolated "extraher".  It is fashioned from
"extraher" in the presence of "extraction," "extractor", "subtraher",
"subtraction", "distraher", "distraction", "distractive", "distractor",
etc..
 
They say that every verb whose second stem (every verb has a second
stem for derivational purposes) does not result from the simple addition
of -at- or -it- (the forms for getting the past participle from -ar, and
(-er, -ir) verbs), is listed in the Interlingua-English Dictionary
by a full statement of its two stems.  For example
 
traher (trah-/tract-)
 
lists the two stems.  In cases where a stem gets altered when put in the
middle of a word, we have those cases also listed:
 
caper (cap-/capt-; -cip-/-cept-) v. 1. to grasp, seize; 2. to hold, contain.
 
So we get caper > capace, capacitate; captive, captivo, captitivate; captura,
capturar, recapturar; mentecapte &c; captar, captation; caption - captiose,
captiose; accip- (no interntional verb is listed, but the stem is, for
the purpose of new formations), acceptar, acceptabile, acceptation,
acception; conciper > concipibile, concipimento, concepto, conceptual,
conception, conceptive; deciper > decipibile (deceivable, new formation),
deceptor, deception; excipe-/except- > exception, exceptive, exceptar,
exceptabile, &c; inciper > incipiente, incipientia; inception, inceptive,
inceptar; perciper, percipiente (N.F.), percipibile, (N.F.), perceptive,
perception, perceptibile, perceptor; precip-/precept- > preceptive, preceptor,
precepto; reciper, recipibile (N.F.), recipiente (adj), recipiente (n),
recepta, reception, receptive, receptivitate, receptor, receptar; etc.
 
Next, no derived verb can ever have an irregular second stem. Verbs like
"fusionar" from "fusion", "acceptar", "receptar" are always regular, yielding
derivations like "acceptation", "receptation".  "acception" and "reception"
are derived, on the other hand from the stem -cept- alone, as in
reciper, recepte, reception.  (The second stem or supinal stem is a
collateral form of the past participle)
 
Now one can try to learn rules to go from the initial stem to the
"irregular" second stem.  Sr. Creux's rules are a possibility and based
on the insight, which I'm sure Latin teachers have worked out, of how
the attempt to add the -t- of a participle form to the base stem verb,
led to phonetic changes - Creux's "consonantal attraction" - as one
tried to quickly speak the participle.  For example ager > agite > agt- >
act-; facer > facite > fac't- > fact-  (back when Latin pronounced
c as k before e and i). Sometimes there were vowel changes: rediger >
redigite > redig't- > redag't > redact-.
 
The Grammar of Gode and Blair lists many more double-stems and even
rules for how to go from the first to the second.  For example,
for -er verbs, when the first stem ends in c, l, n, p, r, u, x, the
second stem is normally formed by simply adding -t- to the stem:
docer: doc-/doct-; ducer: duc-/duct-; tener: ten-/tent-; caper: cap-/capt-.
When the first stem ends in -sc, this ending is reduced or dropped and
t then added:  crescer: cresc-/cret-; miscer: misc-/mixt-; noscer:
nosc-/not-; cognoscer: cognosc-/cognit; pascer: pasc-/past-
quiescer: quiesc-/quiet-.
 
Through adding t to form the second stem, the concluding sound (and
spelling) of the first stem is normally affected by b > p; g and h > c;
m > mp; qu > cu; v becomes u. (See Creux's rules above).
scriber: scrib-/script- ; sorber: sorb-/sorpt-; ager: ag-/act-;
reger: reg-/rect- ; sequer: sequ-/secut-
 
Well, the rules are slightly more complex than Sr. Creux stated them
because there are cases he overlooked.
 
But one readily senses the general principle behind the rules as the
result of trying to take the first stem and add a t sound at the end
and say it rapidly.
 
But you don't need to learn these complex rules, so complicated that
as de Wahl suggests, unlearned, uneducated folks can't learn them.
Well, kids can, probably in a couple of days at the leisurely pace
of a school year, which is sufficient to impart a fairly high degree
of competency in speaking and writing Interlingua.  But for most folks
who speak a European language, they can recognize variants of these
stem-forms in their own languages and if they have an ear for them,
all they have to do to acquire them is to see the stems in words that are
similar to their own native tongue words.  perciper, percipiente :
perceive, percipient;  perceptive : perceptive; perception : perception;
collider, collision : collide, collision.
 
perciper : percibir,  --  ; perceptive : perceptivo; perception : percepcion
collider : chocar ; collision :  colision
 
I have never learned these rules until, maybe, today.  But I picked
up my vocabulary rapidly by seeing the corresponding international
standardized variant of the stems in words and matching the parts of
the words to parts of my English words.  English usually
gives the supine stem in its unadulterated form, often along with
the first stem, e.g., consume, consumption; absorb, absorption;
scribe, script; query, question; -- , delete; move, motion, etc.
 
We already have a built-in derivational system in our own languages which
guides us through the derivational system of Interlingua. We even know
implicitly about the double stems.
 
Stan Mulaik

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March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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