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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

ph, ps, th, rh, etc. and Gode

From:

STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:57:09 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (264 lines)

>DON HARLOW said:
>Sorry, Kjell. I _am_ woefully underinformed about the orthography of
>Interlingua. But I _am_ informed enough to know that, for example,
>
>(a) people on this list are not totally agreed among themselves as to
>whether 'c' before 'e' and 'i' should be pronounced 's', 'ts', or even 'ch'
>(using the English pronounciations of these), but
>
>(b) they _are_ agreed that that 'c' before 'e' and 'i' is pronounced
>_quite_ differently from 'c' before 'a', 'o', and 'u'.
>
>I do not find a problem with this ... in an ethnic language such as Spanish
>(which has the same distinction). I simply consider it an unnecessary
>burden in a planned language. It _is_ tolerable in Interlingua _if_
>Interlingua's basic purposes are somewhat different than those of e.g.
>Esperanto, Ido and Occidental. Dr. Gode, who invented Interlingua, stated
>that they _were_ different -- that he referred to proponents of Interlingua
>who saw its purposes as being like those of Esperanto as "Esperantists"
>(*). Most of the Interlingua-ists I encounter today would fall into this
>category, perhaps because of the particular venue in which I see them
>(Auxlang).
 
Many of them are ex-Esperantists, or ex-Occidentalists, Don. Much of it
is the inevitable result of organizing a social movement to achieve common
goals and running into what seems to be competition.  I think Gode wanted
to show that there was no need to see Esperanto and Interlingua in
competition because they had quite different goals.
 
>
>[Much deleted]
>
>(*) I've quoted this letter before, but might as well put it down here in
>full -- or at least the parts I have available. This letter was sent by Dr.
>Alexander Gode to William Auld -- in English -- on Jan. 11, 1963, during
>the negotiations for a proposed public debate between UEA's Ivo Lapenna and
>Dr. Gode. The partial quote comes from pp. 20-21 of Auld's _Enkonduko en la
>Originalan Literaturon de Esperanto_ (Saarbrucken: Artur E. Iltis, 1979).
>Last time I quoted it, the suggestion was made by someone -- I've
>conveniently forgotten who -- that the Esperantists had made it up. The
>English original can be found in one of the 1963 issues of Floyd & Evelyn
>Hardin's "International Language Review", for anybody who wants to look it
>up.
 
I've done that Don.  I still have those.  I think Gode never got a chance
to fully express his point of view before others - to a significant degree
Floyd Hardin himself - made several serious misattributions to Gode based
on what he had written which others took to be accurate characterizations
of Gode's position, which they then used for whatever polemical purposes.
 
 
> For the record, the debate never occurred; Gode wanted, as a
>precondition, for both parties to stipulate that Interlingua was more
>suited for certain fields and Esperanto for others. Lapenna was (rightly)
>unwilling to so stipulate.
 
I don't think that quite captures it. LaPenna wanted to have each side
have additional speakers, experts in this and that field, and to discuss
the merits of their and foibles of the other system.  Gode never intended
getting into a discussion where he was to say what was wrong with Esperanto
as a language. As he put it in his "Five Theses to Hammar on The Gates of
Babel" (Oct. 62 and March 63) _International Language Review_, "I mean
to imply that it is nonsense to argue against Esperanto by calling it
inefficient,impractical, or ugly....". [He means to say all judgements
of ugly and beautiful in languge are subjective prejudice]. "To call
Esperanto impractical is hardly less naive than to call it ugly....
These are the facts: There is available a substantial original literature
-- both reporting and creative -- in Esperanto. Furthermore there is
more than ample evidence that people can not only converse in Esperanto,
they can make love in it and get married in it."
 
But this Five Theses essay states what his real position is and one
he was prepared to debate and to show why Interlingua couldn't possibly
be in competition with Esperanto because it had different goals from
Esperanto's.
 
1. The first thesis is that the concept of one language for all mankind
is a powerful Utopian myth.
 
His take on it is:  "The endeavor to undo the 'curse' of Babel ... is
concerned with a metaphysical and religious objective: To bring about
-- in preparation for the end of Time -- the ultimate (and original)
harmony of human thought, regardless of what individual brain may serve
as its culture broth.  To replace this metaphysical objective by the
physical one of of striving to provide all mankind with a common
medium of communication is to practice what Reinhold Niebuhr called
"the strategy of fleeing from difficult problems by taking refuge
in impossible solutions.'"
 
2. The second thesis was what I took the earlier material from:
"There can be no doubt but that it is possible to devise artificially an
efficient system of interhuman verbal communication. As a matter of
fact it is possible to devise hundreds of such."
 
What disturbed Gode about Esperanto, not the language, but its
partisans, was that for the present it was like a "language of the chosen"
spoken by a special group in a small society. It was something they
knew that others didn't know and that made them special.  But they
couldn't be content with just speaking among themselves. That didn't
fully satisfy them and wouldn't satisfy them until the gained the
full approval of the whole world by making the whole world see the
value of what they did by coming to speak it too. Gode said: "The
point is precisely that they ardently believe and hope that the day
will come when Esperanto is taught as a second language in all
schools all over the world, with a shrinking body of surviving non-knowers
on hand to remind us that the job is not fished..."
 
Then he says, "All right then, if Esperanto and other universal
auxiliary-language proposals [he doesn't just single out Esperanto]
do not wish but are forced at this time to play the apparent role
of secret cants of communities of fortunate initiates, how can this
traditional situation be expected to change? There is but one answer:
By decree: by the decisions of a world body of authorized representatives;
by the wise benevolence of a world dictator."
 
"But I hold," Gode says, "that in the realm of the intellect and the
spirit -- where language has its roots -- there can be no planning
by decree. The economy of the world of the spirit is a free-market
economy where planning can guide and direct but never compel."
 
3.  "I would define the term 'international language' or 'interlanguage',"
Gode says, "as 'any language in use in international communications."
But that he says would also apply to English and he says that the idea
that Esperanto or Interlingua or any other auxiliary language would come
to crowd out English and is destined to do so brings to mind the image
"of the frog trying to blow himself up to the size of an ox".
 
Gode then says that English is an international language, but that is
different from saying that it is _the_ international language. The
prediction of a glorious future for English "is based on the assumption
that English will continue to have what it takes to compete and excel
in the free-market economy of international communication." But there is
no guarantee, which is to say that things are going to go along
linguistically as they always have with some languages gaining predominance
for awhile and then falling back because of the success and failures
of their speakers.
 
4. "If the world has shrunk, with contacts between nations having become
more direct and intense, the immediate cause must be seen in the flowering
of science and technology since the renaissance and in particular through
the past one hundred or one hundred and fifty years. Since science and
technology take pride in being concerned with facts, not attitudes, it
takes some probing to recognize that it is no accident that modern
science and technology did not arise from an Asian or African cultural
continuity but from the tradition of occidental individualism. This
latter fact is of great linguistic significance. It means that the language
of science -- no matter how it evolved, no matter how transvested
in diverse linguistic garments -- is basically and originally occidental."
 
"However to emphasize," he says, "the occidental origins of the sciences --
ex occidente scientiae -- cannot mislead us to the absurd claim that the
sciences are an occidental perogative.  On the contrary, the objective
factualism of science and technology has grafted them with amazing speed
and ease into the most diverse cultural continuities in all parts of the
world. Hence the event that contributions to further advances in all the
fields of science and technology are being made in the ever increasing
number of languages."
 
"We shall have to cope with this situation which is not just a matter of
prediction, for it is at hand. We shall cope with it in the dynamics
of a free market. We shall have to do more language learning, and not
only more, we shall have to make it more diverse. There will have to be
more translation, tremendously more, too much more for machines to
handle without the help of ever increasing numbers of specialized and
expert translators."
 
"But I hold that in all anticipated evolution of the languge of science
its occidental linguistic substratum is bound to remain essential and
vital."
 
5. "With or without Whorf it is possible to regard the occidental
languages -- sub specie latinitatis -- as variants of a common norm.
This has led to the concept of a 'bridge language'. Take any group of
closely related languages and you can -- without undue artifice or
violence -- reduce them to a common norm in which a message can be
transmitted quite effectively to speakers of each and every one of the
contributing languages without prior initiation. Interlingua is a
pan-occidental bridge language. In it messages can be transmitted
with adequate effectiveness to those who by accident or birth or
by choice of education know well (or fairly well) one of the major
languages of the Latin orbit.
 
He concludes:  "I hold that this assigns to Interlingua a useful
function in scientific communication anywhere in the world." [Stan's
note: It does not imply logically that it is the only function it
might play]. "Once and for all, it is no candidate for the role --
glorious or inglorious -- of one common language for all mankind.
It is no substitute for language learning and no competitor of
translation. It is a bridge language to be used in addressing a
heteropolyglot audience or readership."
 
[Stan: There can be many other situations aside from science and technology
where Interlingua might serve this bridge-language function. It works
for tourists from Uppsala when they head down south for the winter to
enjoy sunny Italy or Spain. It might serve in communicating in a
European parliament, or in European courts. It might serve as a way
for European socialists to announce news of the party's activities
to their south European brethren without multiple translations.
It also can be used as
an embodiment of the common lexical heritage of the European people
to be taught as an efficient medium for imparting to people a knowledge
that not only enriches their appreciation for their commoun cultural
heritage, but provides a bridge-language to speakers of other parts
of Europe.  The possibilities are yet unenumerated.]
 
Gode said in the following quote:
>
>"Your impatience with the interlinguistic hobbyists cannot be greater than
>mine, and I too believe, like you, that the majority of attacks against
>Esperanto are quite nonsensical... What I want to explain is not at all
>that Interlingua is superior to Esperanto, but preferably that Interlingua
>has nothing at all in common with the ideological motivation of Zamenhof
>and his disciples... For you Esperanto is a living language with all the
>characteristics implied by that term. I assume your agreement about the
>statement that there stands a long road ahead of Esperanto before it may be
>claimed that it presents a more or less adequate realization of Zamenhof's
>early vision. Your goal has to be that millions, not thousands, think of
>Esperanto and use it as you do. In some way that makes you a missionary,
>because you realize that much work remains to be done before your language
>can fulfill the functions for which it was created. I personally can, of
>course, respect your faith in the future of Esperanto, but I cannot share
>it. For me, as for millions and millions of others, such an auxiliary
>language as you conceive of it is more nightmare than ideal. This is a
>viewpoint which I may not and will not force on others, although
>paradoxically it really makes me intolerant of the attitude of the typical
>Esperantist, for whom proselytizing ('varbado') is a necessary and natural
>activity, with the implication that he is forced ever anew to try to
>convert me and my contemporaries and/or our descendants to his faith in the
>final glory and greatness of a common second language for all mankind... I
>know, of course, that there are no few supporters of Interlingua who view
>it as a competitor of Esperanto's in its seeming or projected role of
>universal language for international communication. I call such supporters
>of Interlingua "Esperantists", because the real quintessence of the
>Esperantist attitude is not that the accusative should end in -n or that the
>plural must have a -j, but preferably the belief that planning and
>propaganda and education can bring the golden age when no two people will
>lack a common means of communication. In my opinion, the spreading of
>Interlingua from this viewpoint represents an important hindrance to our
>cause, which is really nothing else than the striving to give a concrete
>form to the common linguistic tradition of the Western world, because that
>tradition has by chance become the reservoir from which all language
>throughout the world draw, directly or indirectly, their technical (**) and
>scientific terminologies. (***) If medieval Latin were alive today,
>Interlingua would not be needed. I have never argued against Esperanto from
>purely linguistic criteria, and I do not intend to do so in the future."
>
[snip]
>
>(***) Which is far from 100% true, even in Europe.
 
As long as the various European languages are contributing to the
international vocabulary, then it is true.  If "eigenvector" and "eigenvalue"
enter English and other languages from German, they enter the international
vocabulary and Interlingua will capture it.  But in a way "eigen" in
"eigenvector" is a calque translation of the Latin "proprius" (proper)
which is also used in this same context, e.g. proper vector.  If French
physicists talk about "quarks" and Italians do the same, this English word
becomes part of the international scientific vocabulary of the West -- and
the rest of the world. The same would occur if Japanese or Chinese
scientists were to contribute some new scientific concept and a
word from their languages for it, and this is absorbed into the
international vocabulary of science.
 
Stan Mulaik

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March 2007, Week 5
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December 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 1
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January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 5
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