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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Orthography in Eo and Ia: Re: prototypes and questions

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:18:55 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

Kjell Rehnstrom wrote:
 
some interesting things I'd like to comment on.
 
> The orthography of Interlingua does not at all affect the spoken language.
> I think I can truthfully say that I am the only one on this list who has
> been speaking both Esperanto and Interlingua quite regularly.
>
> During the Interlingua conferences that I have been taking part in over
> here in Europe, I have never experienced that you misunderstand a word
> because it is spelt with a _ph_ instead with an _f_. It is easier to
> understand a Pole, Swede, Dane, Dutchman, Slovak, Frenchman speaking
> interlingua than if said people were speaking English. That is an
> observation I have made.
 
I've noticed that many folks on this list think they have the answers but don't
enlighten us to the question.  As I perceive it, the most important question is
as follows: Which is easier, a) for people who use both 'ph' and 'f' top learn
to always use 'f' or b) for people who use only 'f' to learn to sometimes
replace it with 'ph'? As long as I'm dealing with that question, it's pretty
obvious what my priorities are going to be.
 
A related question is: Which is easier for speakers of Non-European languages
to learn, one grapheme to one phoneme correspondance (f = f) or two or more
grapheme to one phoneme (f = f, ph = f). Again, I think the answer (and
therefore my priorities are pretty clear.
 
 
 
> Same can be said about Esperanto, but it is one point that very few people
> have addressed concerning Esperanto. If you will allow me a digression:
 
(deleted interesting material about difficulties of pronouncing Esperanto
experienced by Swedish speakers)
 
> In Esperanto you can of course say _kazo_ and mean _kaso_ and be
> understood, but the norm is _kazo_ so you are making a mistake pronouncing
> _s_ instead of _z_.
 
I've long felt that the phonology of Eo is a little too highly developed. I've
also decided I have better things to do than pronounce the language exactly as
written.
 
I find that under the influence of Polish, I find 'kv' rather difficult and so
I substitute the Polish pronunciation 'kf' as in kvin [kfin] I also pronounce
'kz' as [gz] and 'bs' as [ps] most likely also under Polish influence (I do
sometimes proncounce [bs] too under American influence.
 
BTW I heard John Wells lecture on phonology in Esperanto. He also included a
list of 50 or so it seemed cases in which Eo pronunciation has the potential to
differ from the orthography. (I had the impression he wasn't alarmed by the
possibility, he is a linguist and a phonologist and he knows better than
believe Eo 100% phonetic propoganda).
 
> Interlingua on the other hand permits variants. If you cannot pronounce
> _dzh_ you can say _j_ or _y_. So the word _jam_ can be pronounced [zham,
> dzham jam]. At the Interlingua conferences that I have taken part in, I
> have heard all three pronounciations. They are perfectly understandable.
> Because there is no strict norm as to how to pronounce the different
> sounds, your ear becomes more tolerant than in Esperanto.
 
I'm developing a theory that strict adherence to Eo guidelines may be damaging
for one's linguistic development (I'm half joking, half serious).
 
> Even though I
> support the pronunciation _sts_ for _sc_ + _e, i, y_ - because it is
> clearer - I can perfectly well understand and endure if people say
> _siensia_ instead of my pronunciation _stsi'entsia_.
 
Again, I think the present situation in which Esperanto is mostly learned by
afficionados is not very representative of what an IAL in widespread use would
be like. Would be Eists are willing to try to conform as exactly as possible to
established usage. Somebody who's learning the language because they need it
for their work isn't necessarily going to go thru all the trouble to pronounce
'kz' (what _was_ Zhof thinking of?) or eksciis. (I bet that would get flattened
out to eksis, with the accent on the final syllable if Eo ever reached the
masses.
 
I think think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that 'kf' and 'kw' be
accepted as correct pronunciations for 'kv' (and [gz] for 'kz' and [ps] for
'bs').
 
> As for the Orthography in Interlingua I see an educational value in
> retaining the traditional "scientific" spelling.
 
Why? (I'm geunuinely curious)
 
As I perceive it, this assumes that this is always preserved (which it
certainly isn't in Italian, Spanish or Portuguese all of which have abandoned
'ph' 'th' 'rh'  (as has Polish) or that Ila is just a gateway for English,
French etc. I don't see how this follows. I thought the whole purpose for
establishing the international common vocabulary was for people to use it
across language barriers. Otherwise it's a fairly pointless exercise (unless
you're hard up for dissertation topic in the area of filology).
 
 
> Oh, by the way: I don't hold any diploma as to whether I know esperanto or
> not, so it may well be that I don't know the language, despite the fact
> that I used to translate a leaflet for tourists about Uppsala and that I
> have talked to Don on this list!
>
> I once tried to pass the _elementa ekzameno_ in Sweden, and I made the
> written test, and I _think_ they said that I passed, but perhaps I flunked,
> and they did not want to tell me, those lovable people, don't you think?
> Anyway I never heard anything from them and forgot the whole matter.
 
Sounds like lack of follow through and poor organization to me (on the part of
whoever gave you the test). Is this typical of Eo organizations? If you passed,
they should congratulate you. If you failed, you deserve to be told (and
motivated to try again).
 
Amike,
Mike Farris

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