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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: prototypes and questions

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:46:49 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

Je 09:44 ptm 12/31/98 -0500, Stan MULAIK skribis:
 
>Don Harlow said on Stillman [and other topics, see below]:
>">
>">But the orthography still has far greater regularity than in English,
>">which similarly preserves prototypic spellings out of the Greek of
>">Neolatin.  But orthography, I contend, is not just for sounding the
>">words, but for recognizing and distinguishing those with similar sounds
>">but different meanings.  Do you imagine how unrecognizable French words
>">would be to the English if the French wrote in a purely phonetic way?
>">
>"(Shakes head) Stan, you once took me to task for suggesting that
>"Interlingua was meant for primarily passive, written use. Yet here you are,
>"stating -- in essense -- that _passive, written use_ is the most important
>"factor to consider in a language. Please note: no matter what orthography
>"you use, words with similar sounds but different meanings are going to
>"remain confusable in a spoken context. Given that, Zamenhof's solution is,
>"from my point of view, infinitely better -- if you're going to borrow words
>"from ethnic languages, modify the words _as necessary_ to remove such
>"confusion as far as possible. Then there is no reason _not_ to use a
>"phonetic orthography, which in its turn makes the ability to _produce_
>"written material considerably easier.
>
>But Don, a written language is used more in reading and writing and
>not in speech.
 
But an IAL is used in all of these -- in fact, considerably more in speech
than in writing, once it gets going (see the case of Esperanto -- I went
over all this with Bruce Gilson at great length last year). Furthermore, a
language with _any_ irregularities in its orthography is more difficult to
learn for _any_ productive purpose. Passive use, again, is perhaps easier;
see below re French.
 
>It doesn't seem to be a problem with your use
>of ch, gh, whatever, in writing Esperanto, now, does it?
 
Since ch,gh, etc are used as an _alternative_ orthography, and most people
who speak Esperanto by preference never use them -- I certainly don't (on
the net, the 'x'-convention is preferred, where necessary since, 'x' not
being an Esperanto letter, there's no possibility of confusion) -- no, it
doesn't seem to cause much of a problem. If it _were_ commonly used, it
could cause more problems -- I can easily see a beginner in the language,
faced with the title of a recent Doyle translation (if it were published in
'h'-convention), digging through his dictionary to find the totally
unrecognizable root "chashund'", though an experienced speaker would have
no problem.
 
>I would be a fierce opponent of spelling reform in English, because
>orthography is not just about translating spoken language into writing
>which is a unidimensional view of the matter.  Orthography concerns
>many things.
>
I myself would be a fierce proponent of spelling reform in English if there
were only one version of English to reform. There is something seriously
wrong with a situation in which native-speaking kids have to spend half an
hour a day for some six years (comes out to about 540 hours) learning to
spell (to some degree) an alphabetically written language. That's roughly
the same length of time Chinese kids spend learning to recognize and
produce Chinese glyphs. (This is a remembrance from my own school days. The
situation may be different today; given the quality of some of the spelling
I see on line, this is even probable.)
>"
>"As far as English recognition of French words -- I can only say that my
>"high-school French class under Mrs. Brown would have gone considerably
>"faster if we had not had to spend so much time on the very unpredictable
>"link (though perhaps not as unpredictable as that in English) between
>"French pronunciation and French spelling. Recognizability of some words
>"(certainly a minority of the ones we had to learn in first-year French,
>"which concentrated primarily on words and particles which didn't have many
>"cognates in English) far from made up for that loss of time.
>
>They tell me that French pronunciation quite regularly follows the
>spelling, but not character for character.
 
Huh???
 
>And a lot of characters don't
>get sounded at all.
>
Precisely. You first have to learn which characters to ignore when
pronouncing the language -- not all that difficult, actually (though I
still don't know whether or not the third person plural present ending of
the verb is actually pronounced or not). Learning where to stick them back
in is much, much harder. Passive versus productive use, again. Not to
mention a plethora of supersigns whose _only_ use is to let you know
whether Charlemagne pronounced the same word with an 's' or not. Or some
that have no use at all (I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me
why "Espe'ranto" has an _aigu_ over the second 'e', since the two 'e's are
pronounced identically and neither one is stressed...). They do, however,
seem to be essential, as a spelling reform movement in France found out to
its dismay a couple of years ago...
 
>A student who takes a course in Interlingua for one year usually can read
>more French than a student who takes French for one year. Ingvar Stenstrom
>who taught "the international vocabulary" (a course substituted in the
>curriculum for a study of Latin) by using Interlingua found his students
>could read more Italian or French or Spanish after one year than similar
>students in courses on these languages after the same year of study of
>those languages.  The reason: they didn't have to worry about all the
>verbal inflections, the gender agreements, and could just concentrate on
>vocabulary after mastering quickly the grammar and particles.
>
Not surprising. The propaedeutic value of Esperanto has been well
demonstrated in a number of experiments, and it's reasonable to assume that
the same thing would apply to other planned languages.
 
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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