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AUXLANG  January 1999, Week 4

AUXLANG January 1999, Week 4

Subject:

Commentary on Haas' Critique of Interlingua Part II

From:

STAN MULAIK <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:59:45 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (267 lines)

Further reactions to Occidentalist Haas' "The Unacceptable Defects
of Interlingua Gode".
 
To achieve some brevitate I'm going to summarize his criticisms.
 
"Why the pronouns of Interlingua Gode are Impossible"
 
Haas complains that the pronouns "nos" (we) and "vos" (you, pl.) in
Interlingua are too similar and hence confusable.  The ideal pronouns
would be words that are much more different, as in Occidental's "noi" and
"vu".
 
This is really just a matter of taste.  "nos" and "vos" are Latin. They
are not confused.
 
Perhaps I should display the Interlingua pronoun system:
 
                         Interlingua Pronouns
    Subject     Object    Object        Reflexive         Possessive
                Prepos.    Case                     before noun  full form
1 sg  io          ......... me ..............          mi          mie
2 sg  tu          ......... te ..............          tu          tue
1 pl  nos ...................................       ..............nostre
2 pl  vos ...................................       ..............vostre
3 s m ille ...........      le           se            su          sue
3 s f illa ...........      la           .             .            .
3 s n illo, il........      lo           .             .            .
3 p m illes ..........      les          .             lor         lore
3 p f illas ..........      las          .             .            .
3 p n illos ..........      los          .             .            .
 
The system above mirrors rather closely the prototypic Romance
pronoun system.
 
Latin had pronouns only for the first and second grammatical persons.
To refer to the third person, Latin used various demonstratives
(is, hic, iste, ille), although "ille" came to be preferred and is the
basis for Romance pronouns in the third person.
 
[The demonstrative "ille" was also the basis for the definite article,
in most of the Romance languages, which appears as "le" in Interlingua.
It also evolved into the Romance demonstratives ecce ille > Fr. celle
or eccu ille > *aquelle Rum., It., Sp. Port. Cat. (with characteristic
further modifications).]
 
Haas complains that many languages do not retain the sex distinction in
the third person. Occidental uses only "ili".  He evidently ignored the
fact that the Interlingua Grammar of Gode and Blair said that the
distinction of sex in the third person plural pronoun is optional and
a single form "illes" may be used for all sexes and for sets of mixed
sexes and things.
 
He further criticizes the fact that the third person pronouns are "too
similar and too schematic" - a tacit recognition that protoromance from
Latin was schematic and not irregular.  But one can ask in cases like this
"What is _too_ similar or too schematic?" How would one determine an answer
to this?  In any case, it is irrelevant as a criticism, since the aim was
to recover a prototypic system, and Interlingua suceeds in this goal.
 
Haas argues that if one takes _nostre-vostre_ or _nor_ - _vor_, it is just a
question of taste. But that one takes for the adjective form _mi_ (without
the -e), and for the substantive one joins the -e, is a little too illogical.
In reality, he says, no special treatment is needed, because in every case
the substantive form is found by appending the definite article in front of
the substantive.  In Occidental this is regularly done by adding -e to an
adjective, e.g., central (adj.) / li centrale (noun).  [Interlingua also
does this but does not add anything to the adjective to make it into a noun,
e.g., central, le central.]
 
But the Interlingua Grammar views this case
a little differently.  The full _adjective_ forms of the possessive are mie,
tue, nostre, vostre, sue, and lore.  When the possessive adjective precedes
a  noun, usually there is no article in the construction, e.g., "Mi fratre e
tu soror celebra lor nuptias" (My bother and your sister celbrate their
wedding). In those cases the -e is dropped.  But if the adjective follows the
noun, which is more typically the rule, the -e is retained: "Mi fratre e le
fratre tue es bon amicos," (My father and your father are good friends).
The adjective is converted to a noun by preceding it by a definite article:
"Mi fratre e le tue es bon amicos" (My father and yours are good friends).
If an article is used in a construction one may have, e.g., "Le matre mie"
(adjective follows the noun modified) or even (but rarely) "Le mie matre...".
So Haas misunderstands because -e in mie, sue, tue, lore is not a noun
indicator, but just the complete form of the possessive adjective. The -e
is dropped when the possessive adjective precedes the noun and there is no
article in the construction also modifying the noun modified by the possessive
adjective.  Examples of all these cases were shown in the Interlingua Grammar,
but Haas apparently read the section only superficially and hence
misconstrued it.
 
 
Next, Haas complains that the pronoun's use of -e, -a, -o to denote
masculine, feminine and neuter, respectively, in the third person pronoun,
goes contrary to the -o, -a, -e of noun endings that are vestiges of a
grammatical gender.  He regards as bad, phrases like "le capro, ille es
belle; le historia, illo es interessante".
 
This criticism is amateurish. Haas confuses grammatical gender with sex.
The difference between pronouns is not a gender but a sexual difference.
In the above examples "capro" (goat) is a he-goat (ille), and "historia"
has no sex at all but is neuter, hence "illo". If we wished to make a
special point that the goat were a she-goat, we would say in Interlingua,
"le capra, Illa es belle". The -o, -a, and -e of noun endings in
interlingua do not denote grammatical gender and only rarely does -o and
-a denote in a noun sex of persons or animals. The -o ending on Interlingua
nouns derived from masculine (gender) nouns in Latin was the confluent
result of the simplification of several endings in Latin, e.g. -um, -us >
-u > -o. In the case of the pronouns, -e (masc.) -a (fem.) were the
endings in Latin of the demonstrative "ille" used as a third person
pronoun to denote the sex (not grammatical gender) of individuals. The
third person neuter was given by "illud" > illu' > illo. To create new
pronoun forms that attach -o endings to masculine pronouns and -e to
neuter would have been unnatural and something contrary to the intuitions
of Romance speakers. The category of sex (male, female, neuter) is
not identical to the category of gender which gave rise (vestigially) to
-o, -a, -e noun endings in Interlingua. Many things with -o, -a, and -e
endings are neuter in terms of sex: le methodo, illo es..., le historia,
illo es, ... le attitudine, illo es...... On the other hand: "Le homine,
ille veniva...." (the man, he came....); "Le obrero, ille non esseva
empleate" (The man, he was not employed); "Le missionaria, illa dava su
vita pro salvar le infantes" (The (woman) missionary, she gave her life to
save the children).
 
Haas criticizes the use of "ille" as both the masculine pronoun and the
demonstrative adjective (taken from Latin).  Perhaps he has a point, since
protoromance usually distinguished the demonstrative adjective ille (and
corresponding demonstrative pronoun) ille (masc.), illa (fem.) illo (neuter)
by preceding it with an "epidictic", e.g. eccu(m) ille > *accu ille >
aquelle. This was not recognized by IALA because the etymology of the
demonstratives in _all_ the Romance languages was not available or consulted.
That issue is currently under evaluation by Interlingua's philologists.
 
Haas criticizes the fact that Interlingua uses the Romance word order,
e.g., of Spanish, of having the direct object pronoun precede the verb:
 
Ille me lo dava = he gave (dava) it (lo) to me.
 
But Interlingua deliberately uses Romance forms for its grammatical
features, but drops the features not found in all the base languages
(which all have direct and indirect object forms of the pronouns,
so this feature is not dropped). This way of positioning object and
indirect object pronouns is the way it is done in Romance.
 
The same applies to his criticism that Interlingua reflexives precede the
verb but follow the participles and infinitives:
 
Io les suprendeva.       Io ha suprendite les  (I suprized them).
Iste libro se vende multo ben.  This book sells (itself) very well.
Dirigente se verso le sol, illa precava. (Turning herself to the sun, she
   prayed).
 
Haas further criticizes that in Interlingua in the compound tenses which
consist of auxliary tense form plus an infinitive or a past participle,
the personal or reflexive pronouns may precede the auxiliary or follow the
participle or infinitive:
 
Io ha suprendite les  or  Io les ha suprendite. (I have suprized them)
Io va suprender les   or  Io les va suprender.  (I will suprize them).
 
Romance allows either.
 
Haas regards as "extrem regretabil" what he sees to be a restriction of
the relatives to two: "que" (rel. pron.) and "qual" (relative adjective).
Occidental tries to make distinctions between "que" (that), "qual"
(what a), "quel" (who, which),  and "quo" (what) with four forms.
 
But why create four forms when two will do along with other forms of the
article which exist independently of the relative pronoun and adjective?
 
Haas tries to force Interlingua's relatives into the Procrustean
Bed of Occidental's relatives.  Interlingua can achieve the same nuances
with the use of supplementary words:
 
"que" is the relative pronoun, e.g.
 
"Le ultime traino que pote portar me ibi a tempore parti in cinque minutas."
The last train THAT can carry me there on time departs in five minutes.
 
"Le documentos que le spia portava con se esseva multo importante."
The documents THAT the spy carried with himself were very important.
 
"qual" is the relative adjective and interrogative adjective e.g.
 
"Le spia non cognosceva qual traino parteva a Campobello."
The spy did not know WHICH train departed to Campobello.
 
"Le spia demandava del agente de billets, 'Qual traino va a Campobello?"
The spy asked of the ticket agent, 'WHICH train goes to Campobello?'"
 
Qual stupiditate que ille portava le documentos a su persona!
What stupidity that he carried the documents on his person!
 
"le qual" - pronominal and can be pluralized - similar to "que"
 
"Le documentos le qual esseva multo importante...."
The documents which were very important...
 
"lo que"  - "what, that which"
                    "lo" here is a neuter pronominal form of the definite
                    article, which is a truncated demonstrative. It
                    also is the neuter object case form of the third
                    person pronoun. These features all seem part of
                    "lo" used in this expression.
 
"Lo que io pensa...."
What I think....
 
"Io non sape lo que ille pensa ..."
I don't know what he thinks....
 
Haas objects that after Interlingua carries out the functions of cases with
"que" and "qual" by the prepositions "de" (for the possessive case) and
"a" (for the dative case), it also introduces "qui" (who, whom; used only
for persons as subject or after a preposition) and "cuje" (whose).  This is
a trivial objection to a development that makes the language more natural.
French has "qui", Italian, "chi", "cui", Spanish "que, quien" for ILa "qui".
The possessive "cuje" < lat. cujus is found in Spanish, Portugese, and
Sardinian while other Romance languages use forms either unique to them or
based on constructions like ILa's "de qui".
 
Le spia, qui portava le documentos a su persona, esseva anxie.
The spy, who carried the documents on his person, was anxious.
 
Le spia, cuje documentos contineva le planos pro le proxime battalia..."
The spy, whose documents contained the plans for the next battle....
 
Le spia de qui le policia habeva establite le identitate....
The spy whose identity the police had established....
 
Haas believes that an important defect is the lack in Interlingua of an
indefinite demonstrative adjective that does not indicate either proximity
(iste) or remoteness (ille).  But again Haas wants to force Interlingua onto
the Procrustean bed of Occidental.  Romance has demonstratives for that
which is near the person speaking (iste), or near the person spoken to
(ille), or near neither the speaker nor the one spoken to (ipse?). But
Interlingua, under the pressure of English that does not have
this distinction, has only the two demonstratives (iste, ille). This is
in accord with the rule to eliminate from the grammar any function not
found in all the base languages.
 
In examining examples of the demonstratives, Haas misinterpreted an
optional form of expression for feminine speakers as a necessary one: He
says "Also the difficulty, that a woman _must_ speak of herself other than
as a man, is totally unnecessary (and doesn't exist even at a minimum in
English or German)...":
 
The example cited was
 
Woman says: "Io es una de illas qui crede que le matrimonio es sancte".
(I am one of those (women) who believe that marriage is sacred).
Man says:  "io es uno de illes qui crede que le matrimonio es sancte".
 
But women can just as easily say
 
"Io es uno de illes qui crede que le matrimonio es sancte."
 
The example was not designed to demonstrate mandatory forms of speech
for female speakers but how sex (not gender) differences may be indicated
with demonstrative pronouns (and articles) as they are with nouns
generally.
 
Thus we have seen that most of Haas' criticisms are based on
misinterpretations based on a superficial understanding of Interlingua
grammar or judging Interlingua as defective because it is not like
Occidental.
 
Stan Mulaik

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June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
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May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
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March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
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February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
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November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
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October 2007, Week 3
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October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
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July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
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June 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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August 1998, Week 1
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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