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CONLANG  February 1999, Week 1

CONLANG February 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: NGL: Composition

From:

Gerald Koenig <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:30:03 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (230 lines)

This post looks at some questions raised by Stephen, Jack,and Carlos:

>
>On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:46:38 -0800 (PST), Gerald Koenig
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>xa::-must,legal shall. x says that y must make "p" true. No choice.
>>[default: y is subject of the proposition "p".]
Stephen>
>I follow, but I think it might be confusing to shorten this as "must,"
>because modals like "must" have no x portion to their proposition in
>languages we're used to. The most important thing you have to get
>accross to learners in teaching this modal, which is different than
>what they are used to, is that the subject of {xa} is the agent
>forcing the action and the object of {xa} is in turn the _subject_ of
>the classical "must" proposition.

Ok. I defer to your experience in front of the classroom and I'll try
again:
1 "I forced you to come here" is Jack's sentence to be translated.

The VXT definition of "must, or legal "shall":

xa::- A Controller (x) _requires that_ a Controllee (y) make "P" true.
There is no choice for the Controllee, y; he will be forced.


Symbolicly:  XxaY "P" "ex sha why that pee".. X "shalls" Y that P.
USAGE:
I require of you that: "you come here." is a true sentence:
mi xa [be] vu: [vu] tibe eco.
mi xa vu tibe eco.
I compel you to come here.

"P" is a whole sentence or clause. It expands into NGL form:SDVO/SDiOV.
Xa and V are two independent verbs in the modalized whole sentence and
they can have independent tenses. The independent tenses can create
structures that are not grammatical in English.
The default tense relationship between the modal and the main verb is
matching, or shared. Whichever is tensed explicitly passes its tense to
the other which is unmarked:

I [past] require of you that you [past] come here.
I required of you that you came here.
mi pa xa vu tibe eco.  Both xa and tibe are simple past tenses
(imperfects).
mi xa vu pa tibe eco.  Both xa and tibe are simple past tenses.
(imperfects).
Another way of putting it is that the scope of a single tensor is the
entire expression.

Consider:

1 "I forced you to come here", Jack's sentence to be translated.
Jack has used the TVS past perfect tense, -ot; with "forced" and he shares
it with "come":

Jack:
>In response to Carlos' question, the traditional verb system simply
>strings together generics with all of them inheriting the tense of the
>tensed verb.  For example, "I forced you(sg) to come here" translates
>{In`ca`omot tibeam eco.}
         ^^
  -ot is past perfect. English past perfect is "had verbed".

VXT is: mi ju xa vu [ju] tibe eco.

The ju tensor on "xa" the modal requires it on "tibe" the main verb for
a tense sharing default.  Jack's "inheritance" of tense is my "sharing"
of tense.

English: "I had required of you that you had come here."
Obviously something has gone awry and Stephen and I copied it. A better
tense to use to share in this example would be the past imperfect which
does not create these problems.

Stephen continues:
>Since a person will want to know how
>to make the simpler statement of the type "you had to come here," you
>should also, IMO, include an example showing this simpler use. BTW,
>I'm guessing here, but I think that sentence would be {ju xa vu tibe
>ecoig}, just leave off the agent forcing the action. BTW again, is the
>{tibe} automatically in the same time as {xa}? If so, if i tense
>{tibe}, will its tense be "calculated," if you like, based on the
>present, or will its tense with relation to the presnet be
>"calculated" relative to the time of {xu}, making it somewhat like a
>PVS displaced tense?
>
>Stephen

2 "You had to come here".
As usual, the translation begins with a search for the underlying
sentence being modalized. That this may not be clear is a problem for
English, not VXT.
I get "You came here" as the underlying claim, and the modal part is
" [Compeller] required of you"

You came here.
vu pa tibe eco.
"[Compeller] required of you"
[C] [pa] xa vu

Combined:
[pa]xa vu vu pa tibe eco.
xa vu pa tibe eco.

Someone made you come here.
The Someone can be the self, it is a free variable.
You had to come here=Someone made you come here.
Tense is shared, both are past imperfect, pa.
As Stephen saw, the Compeller can be omitted, and the two vu's merge.
That is what is meant by the phrase, the default y is the subject of p.
One thing VXT does is avoid the intricate complexities around the use of
"have" as a modal auxiliary (hafta come), a tense auxiliary (have
come), and a principle verb (have a drink).

"You had to come here." 6s
Dialectical variants:
VXT:
2'xa vu pa tibe eco.    Shared tense. 6s
2''pa xa vu tibe eco.   Shared tense.
2'''xa vup tibe eco.    Contraction.  5s
2''''xa vu tibepa eco.  Postfix VTT
2'''''pa xav tibe eco.  Contraction.

TVS:
3 xa tibeamos eco.  6s putting -os (imperfect)for -ot (perfect).am=you)s
3'xa vu tibeos eco.
3''xav tibeos eco. 5s
3'''pa xa tibeam eco.
3''''"Inca`xomot tibeam eco." 9s

PVS:
4 xa ta tibeam eco. 6s

I forced you to come here:
{Ta incxom mac tibein ecoig}

[Apologies to the authors, I don't know the PVS and TVS native modal
suffixes or auxiliaries yet.]

[more below]

X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mail.netcom.com id FAA27257

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:03:26 -0800 (PST), Jack Durst <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>In response to Carlos' question, the traditional verb system simply
>strings together generics with all of them inheriting the tense of the
>tensed verb.  For example, "I forced you(sg) to come here" translates
>{Inc`xomot tibeam eco.}
>
>In more complex cases, {fo} is used as a sort of infinitive marker;
>especially if there's causality involved as in {Pairevas rl manom fo
>vitaxe.} "One must eat (now) in order to live."

Stephen:
Just a little note. I use {fo} like this too, with the meaning "in
order to" as well as its definition of "because." I'm not exactly
_uncomfortable_ with this, because English, for example, is able to
use the word "for" in both senses, although the "because" sense of
"for" is a trifle archaic. But I have been thinking about splitting
the meanings, with {fo} retaining the "because" meaning and having
some new word to take up its additional functions, and I think I've
settled on using Jerry's proposed word {be} for the new word.
BTW, Zumirtok/PVS is currently in development with regards to this type
of sentence, currently Zumirtok "I forced you to come here," is {Ta
incxom mac be tibe ecoig}, but I'm considering moving my personal
standard to {Ta incxom mac tibein ecoig} or {Ta incxom tibean
                                ^

Jerry:
"Had forced-I-nom you-acc to come-noun here."
To me this "tibein" is more
adverbial, describing the manner of forcing, narrowing the forcing
action down to a coming. If so this ending would be -if. But I wouldn't
argue this. I'd probably evade the issue with {tIRibe}, and use Carlos'
accent suggestion if there were any ambiguity.  The thing I like about
your long formulation is that it is very clear what it means, It could be
successfully translated to any language IMO. The VXT conveys the same
meaning but takes getting acclimated to.

The next form is more problematical to me. The use of "-am" a nominative
in "tibeamin" makes for strange english: I forced to come-you-nom.
Usually we say things like " They forced _me to come, not they forced
_I to come." An english rule is that the subject of an infinitive is
always in the objective case.

Stephen:
ecoig}, something along those lines, borrowing the VTT infinitive.

Jerry:
Hmm I haven't noticed the slightest wear on it since you borrowed it.
I'd even loan it to Jack.
But don't forget to try it with VXT :).
Jerry.


Stephen
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry tog:
Nilenga doesn't have a modal for physical force at the moment, but if
the above sentence referred say to  Ken Starr's action of subpoenaing
Monica Lewinski, the modal XA for legal force, "shall or must"
would be used:

mi ju xa vu tibe eco.                  ju= -ot, past perfect markers.
I [past perfect] "shalled" [that] "you come here" is true.

Again, the trick to using vxt modals is to isolate a plausible and
sometimes rather opaque "p" to modalize. This example reminds me a lot
of the classic "I tried the door" problem. It can be expanded to "I
tried to make "I opened the door" true; here the proposition or
sentence modalized is "I opened the door".

One reason vxt modals seem abstruse is that we are not mimicking a
natlang, it requires a shift in mindset. After that it gets easier.

The vxt particles are all designed to contract unambiguously, although
I'm sure some errors will turn up, that's why I want usage. The above
sentence would be:

mij xav tibe eco.


xa::-must,legal shall. x says that y must make "p" true. No choice.
[default: y is subject of the proposition "p".]
Jerry

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January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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