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CONLANG  March 1999, Week 2

CONLANG March 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Why Not More Nasals!!!!? (was: Is this a realistic phonology?)

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:40:38 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

At 9:43 pm +0100 8/3/99, Kristian Jensen wrote:
>Daniel Andreasson wrote:
>>Raymond A. Brown wrote:
........
>>>As post-vocalic nasals are more subject to modification by a
>>>following consonant than post-vocalic plosives are, I suspect it's
>>>not at all uncommon to find more nasal sounds than voiced plosives
>>>in very many languages.  But I'm still with Nik when it comes to
>>>actual _phonemes_.
>>
>>And now I am too.
>
>AND I'M STILL NOT. Cambodian, Thai, Vietnamese, and a whole lot of
>other Austro-Asiatic and Daic languages have *MORE* PHONEMIC
>_Nasals_ than _Voiced Stops_!!!! What in the world is so hard to
>believe about that?! What do you all have against the languages of
>Southeast Asia?! 8-)

I don't recall anyone saying anything against the languages of SE Asia.  I
certainly didn't and please don't accuse me of taking up positions that I
do not hold.  I wasn't aware that Sahla was trying to imitate the languages
of that region.

You could, of course, have added that Chinese (all varieties I believe) has
NO phonemic voiced plosives but does have three phonemic nasals - and that
accounts for a large part of the world's population.

In Chinese the lenis plosive are unaspirated while the fortis plosives are
aspirated.  Here, surely, the number of lenis plosive consonants versus the
nasals are what is relevant to this argument.

From what I know of Thai - and I have no doubt your knowledge is greater
than mine - the main opposition is between unaspirated & aspirated
plosives. Indeed, the two voiced plosives, which you rightly quote, seem to
fit oddly into the scheme of things.

I'm by no means well up on the languages of the area, but I get the
impression that the main opposition in plosives is between aspirated &
unaspirated voicless plosives and that the few voiced plosives function
rather differently.

............
>
>Now there you go... its all there as clear as day! Again, what's
>hard to believe about that? The evidence is all there. There is no
>need to make quick assumptions and denying the existence of
>Southeast Asian languages. 8-)

I don't recall anyone denying the existence of these languages.

Even in Europe it possible to find languages which, like Chinese, have no
voiced plosive phonemes but do have nasal phonemes.  Scots Gaelic is one
such language - the symbols {b}, {d} and {g} represent unaspirated
voiceless plosives while {p} {t} {c} represent the aspirated series.  Some
southern German dialects, I believe, operate the same way.

.........
>
>IMO, there is absolutely nothing unusual about having more voiced
>nasal stops than voiced oral stops. It all depends on the voicing
>requirement of the individual languages.

Yes, it does.  In languages where the only or the main opposition between
fortis & lenis plosives is aspiration versus non-aspiration then, yes, the
voiced nasals will, indeed must, outnumber the voiced plosives (if _any_).
And in Polynesian languages where there is only one series of voiceless
plosives, even one nasal must outnumber zero voiced plosives  :)

But I got the impression that Sahla was working within the voiceless -
voiced opposition type of language where aspirated voiceless plosive are
conditioned allophones of of the voiceless plosives.  This _not_ the case
in any of the SE Asian languages AFAIK.

Indeed, Sahla's mention of clicks and implosive consonants seemed to me to
put his phonology more within the context of African languages.  It was
within that context - *and that context only* - that I concurred with Nik's
observation.

>
>Just having the urge to clear things up and acknowledging the
>existence of the languages my Southeast-Asian 'brothers' speak,

I know well about their existence and I agree it does depend on the voicing
requirements of Sahla's language.  Guess I must've misunderstood them
somewhere along the line.

Ray.

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