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AUXLANG  April 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG April 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Kelkaj novaj aferoj legindaj

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:46:45 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (126 lines)

At 09:14 AM 04 04 99 -0700, Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>Je 02:05 ptm 4/3/99 -0800, Chris BURD skribis:
>>At 07:01 PM 02 04 99 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Je 08:45 ptm 4/2/99 -0500, Paul O. BARTLETT skribis:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rughkapuchetulino
>>>>
>>>>    For me, this is an all-too-typical example of Esperanto's
>>>>portmanteau words which are puzzles to be deciphered rather
>>>>than effective means to communication.  I had to stop and work
>>>>this one out, and in conversation it would have been impossible.
>>>>
>>>Hmm? This is no more difficult -- for the student of the language -- than
>>>"Little Red Riding Hood" is for the student of English -- as well as=
 having
>>>the added advantage that it points out that you're talking about a=
 person,
>>>not a piece of clothing.
>>
>>I've think you've missed Paul's point - again. Start by comparing "Little
Red
>>Riding Hood" and "Littleredridinghood". Now imagine a language in which
>>constructions like "Littleredridinghood" are extremely common, and you'll
>>begin to understand why Mark Twain was so impatient with German,
>>and Paul is so impatient with Esperanto.
>>
>Oh, I got the point. But I think _you_ have missed a couple -- again.
>Parsing words is no different from parsing expressions -- a point which is
>_particularly_ true in the spoken language (and this point may be more
>relevant for Esperanto than it is for Interlingua).
 
I don't that you *did* get the point, Don. "Little Red Riding Hood", which
is a phrase, has delimiters between each element; "Littleredridinghood",
which is a kind of pseudo word, doesn't, and is therefore harder to parse.
So how can you say, "Parsing words is no different from parsing
expressions"? I would say your point is not *particularly* true of spoken
language -
it is *only* true of spoken language, and then only for an example like
mine, where the delimiters are merely a orthographic convention. Big=
 surprise.
 
There are spoken-language equivalents - German _die Finanzmaerkte_, _die
finanziellen Maerkte_ for example. Eo could do the same: Rugha Kapula
Ulineto, or something like that.=20
 
>As far as Mark Twain's outraged screams about German were concerned...
 
The point is, he articulated a widely held feeling about the awkwardness=20
of those long German compounds. I mean, I speak pretty fair German, and
I *like* the language, but some of Twain's criticisms still ring true -=20
they wouldn't be funny if they didn't.
 
>
>>It's not even as if there's a chance of ambiguity here - it's just that
>>the reader has to mentally parse every longish word to see if it makes
>>sense as a compound. And even then... I was going to use _acheto_=
 (purchase)
>>as an example of an -et- that doesn't have anything to do with the
diminutive
>>-et-, then I realised that _acheto_ *could* be interpreted as meaning
>>"small contemptible thing", a most useful word, I would think.
>>
>Actually, the word "a=E6/eto" will almost _never_ appear -- its meaning is
>not one that would commonly be needed. "a=E6/et/ulo", maybe. And if it were
>to appear somewhere, as you can see, the root "a=E6et'", which contains the
>significance of an action, is not likely to occur in the same place in a
>discussion as the combination "a=E6/et'", which contains the sense of a
quality.
 
I'm not suggesting that it's seriously ambiguous, just that in language that
uses a lot of agglutination, texts can contain a lot of spontaneously coined
"non-dictionary" words. So when you see an -et- or a -ul- or another of the
30 or so Eo affixes, you find yourself pausing to decide if it's a compound
or not. I don't want to overstate the size of the problem, but it can be=20
a bit annoying. That was Paul's point, I think (part of it, at least).
 
Good discussion of the role of context as a disambiguator.
 
Actually, "acheto" (or "aaeeto" to use your orthography) isn't a good=
 example,
because it's a fairly common word. A better one is "postuloj", which I ran
across in the Eo translation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Given the context, my first guess was that it means "postulates", but then
I thought, hmmm, maybe it's "post|uloj", 'afterpersons', meaning...
'descendents',
perhaps? In fact it is "postulates", but I had to think about it. (Even if
"post-"
hadn't been plausible as a word-element, I would still have had to pause
and parse.)
 
>>I'm not saying, by the way, that feature is an indefensible or=
 irredeemable
>>flaw in Eo; I'm just saying that Paul has a point that you hitherto have=
 not
>>seemed to grasp.
>>
>It's very far from being a flaw. The agglutinative nature of the language
>allows the relative beginner to leverage a small vocabulary into a much
>larger one without lots and lots of memorization.(**)=20
 
You're assuming the only alternative to unlimited agglutination is a larger
vocabulary of roots. That's very far from being the case. A language can
combine=20
*limited* agglutination with other compounding mechanisms. To stick with our
example (not a very good one, as you point out)we could have "Rughkapula
Ulineto",
or "Ulineto de Rugha Kapulo". Both are a little longer, but definitely more=
=20
parsable, perhaps more precise, and create less of that vague annoyance some=
=20
people find in "Rughkapulineto".=20
 
All three, by the way, are equally compounds. There seems to be an=
 assumption
around Auxlang, that unless you build actual words, you're not doing
compounding.
As far as beginners managing with limited vocabularies, I'd suggest that=
 non-
agglutinative methods are easier to use.
 
Cheers,
 
Chris.

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