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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Now we know??? Final Point(s)

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 May 1999 08:52:36 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (194 lines)

It sometimes is "assumed" that when one gives a test, etc. that if
one uses the same rules for one test, then those same rules apply to
the other test.
 
In other words, what is fair for one is fair for the other.
 
Thus if a premise built upon the basis of the results of one test is
fair, and accurate, and sets the STANDARD for that kind of test, then
is it not fair to say, that by using the SAME standard, the results
of the second test would give the same conclusion?
 
I submit, that in this case, it does, and it reveals a lot, at least
to me. Hopefully, you'll see what I mean below.
 
Now, I keep getting berated for supposedly not giveing quote sources
and names. Actually, I do give them, but haven't felt it was always
necessary to make the point of the quote by adding it's author. For,
sometimes, the quote itself is powerful enough on it's own without
making anything else out of it. Anyway,...
 
First, in many cases, if not all, when writing a beginer's book on a
subject, one usually finds the "basic" reasoning and thinkng of the
author, and/or his/her background and group, if a group is involved.
And, the beginner's book is written on a simple enough level that the
beginner can learn with some kind of ease. Plus, as the author goes
along, leading the beginner, the author will make supporting and/or
explanatory statements. And, sometimes the most interesting things
are revealed in those books, that the "experienced" individual
forgets over the years after having learned the subject. Just think
back to things you learned in school yourself.
 
So, so what? What follows comes from the simplest source, sort of
like, "out of the mouths of babes comes great wisdom" on occassion.
 
Well, let's make a couple of points I wanted to make using the
previous two tests. And, if I make them clearly you will understand
why I have said certain things about Occidental in the past that some
have "questioned", because I guess, they thought I was joking. I want
to make the second point first.
 
And, if you've ever wondered what it is that makes an Esperantist an
Esperantist you will find out below.
=================
Section I
 
1. "Not until you can think in Esperanto without any English in your
mind can you be said to know the language."
Now here's the source of that quote, lest I be questioned: Teach
Yourself Esperanto, The English Universities Press Ltd., London, by
John Cresswell and John Hartley, M.A., 1957, 1963, page 13.
 
First, let me say, that it will do no good to ignore this book, or
argue it is only for beginners, or that there are mistakes in it, or
that the authors do not speak for the mass of Esperantists, etc. as
is usually done when I give a quote and its source. This book was
meant to attract and teach new people how to learn Esperanto. To
build the Esperanto movement. And was written by two men with the
"Diploma of the British Esperanto Association."
 
Ok, what is the point of this number one? It is this.
 
You do not THINK in Esperanto in the beginning. You cannot do that
until you have studied it, and then after the fact, you then can grow
to THINK in Esperanto. In other words, you have to memorize and learn
almost totally new material, and certainly thousands of words that
are not used by you at the present time. They are not even in your
mind until you pick up that first Esperanto book and start.
 
On the other hand, you ALREADY THINK in Occidental _before_ studying
it. Obviously not everything in Occidental. That's not the point, as
you will see later. But, for multiple millions of Westerners, and
others who have studied and learned certain other languages, you are
already thinking in Occidental. Thus, if you go by the above
statement, "you know the language."
 
Conclusion: From this standpoint, Occidental is easier by far than
Esperanto. Why? Because most of it is already in your head. And,
based on the STANDARD I mentioned above, which you will see soon,
this is true. Further conclusion: Multiple hundreds of millions of
people are Occidentalists, whether they know it or not. Don't laugh
just yet.
 
And, based on the above quote and it's full implications, along with
what is coming, you KNOW Occidental before you even start it. So,
from the beginning, de Wahl's argument has been, "what you already
know is the easiest to use and to learn and to maintain and to
expand" . And, most Westerners already automatically think in
Occidental "partially". Ah, you say, but Bob, that word "partially"
means you can't be right. Right? Just wait, we'll see.
 
==============
Section II
 
In the past, on this list, and elsewhere, has been asked, "what
qualifies an individual to be an Esperantist," especially for
counting  and statistical purposes? What do they have to know to be
considered an Esperantist? Well, there is an answer, and you might be
surprised from whom it is claimed to come from.
 
Now, please keep this in mind as we proceed. If you were not an
Esperantist, how much of the Esperanto test did you automatically
know? How much on the Occidental test? Which did you "automatically"
know the most of, even though the "spelling" might be a little
different from what you normally use? In other words, which had you
already "mastered" the most by already knowing the most? I hope I'm
being clear.
 
2) "Having mastered lessons 1-5, you are already an Esperantist."
ibid, p. 51.
 
Did you get that? If you have mastered lessons 1-5 of this book, you
are an Esperantist. Now, what was the test I gave for Esperanto? It
was all the material given in lessons 1-5. Therefore, IF you know the
answers to those first questions, and know only that vocabulary of
200-215 words, you are considered an Esperantist by Esperantists. By
their STANDARD and DEFINITION.
 
By using the SAME STANDARD then, congratulations, you are an
Occidentalist, along with hundreds of million others, and for the
most part, haven't even studied it yet as "Occidental". If someone
knows half of the first set of questions in Occidental, and 180 of
the 200+ words, they more than "partially" fulfill this STANDARD set
by the Esperantists. Thus, since one has to STUDY Esperanto from
scratch, they can only muster a possible 2,000,000 folks. Remember
the standard now, the five lessons, no more, no less. Oh, I forgot,
180 words of Occidental's list is only "partially" mastered.
 
Ok, well, let's finish the quote from Teach Yourself Esperanto on the
same page.
 
"Having mastered lessons 1-5, you are already an Esperantist. To a
_limited_ degree, no doubt; BUT as ZAMENHOF truly said, if only a
limited number of people in each country knew the international
language, and IF even they knew it only PARTIALLY, the language
problem would be essentially solved. The barriers which have always
separated the nations would be breached.
Put your knowledge to practical use immediately, by writing a few
postcards to _beginners_ in other lands. Addresses may be found in
the current issues of Esperanto magazines. Nothing elaborate! Just a
few phrases on a picture postcard of your town or of some British
beautyspot, to a variety of countries, such as Spain, Finland and
Austria. There is no more vivid way to the realilsation that
Esperanto opens before you not merely one foreign country, but the
whole world." [My question is, if you are only able to write to
Esperantists, how is this opening the whole world to you?]
 
Now, here's my Occidental version of the above statement.
 
"Having already mastered more than the criteria set forth for being
an Esperantist, you are an Occidentalist with a vocabulary already in
your head of thousands of words known, versus just 200+, and you
already know them without study. To a _grester_ degree, no doubt, BUT
as de WAHL truly said, by using what millions already know, if those
unlimited number of people in each country would use the
"international" words they already know, and since they know them
more than PARTIALLY, the language problem is essentially solved. The
barriers which have always separated the nations would be breached.
Put your knowledge to practical use immediately, by writing a lot of
postcards to people in other lands. You don't need addresses of
Occidentalists, just write to anyone. Just a few phrases on a picture
postcard of your town or os some British beautyspot, to a variety of
countries, such as Spain to any Spaniard, to Findland to any Finn and
to Austria to any Austrian. There is no more vivid way to the
realisation that Occidental opens before you not merely one foreign
country, but the whole world."
 
Thus, by using the exact same STANDARD for being an Esperantist, it
is a fact that hundreds of millions of people around the world are
Occidentalists. What is that STANDARD?
 
1. To know some basic affixes and grammatical endings.
2. To know approximately 200-215 words.
3. To PARTIALLY know the language.
 
Esperanto has a long way to go to catch up if we use their standards
for being an Esperantist, as the standards for qualifying a person to
be an Occidentalist.
 
I knew you would enjoy it.
 
Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~
 
P.S. Here is my postcard to you:
 
Mi estimat amicos,
Hallo! E ples haver un bon die.
It es calid in Tucson, e li desert es plu grand.
Mi nomine es Robert. E li nomine de mi marita es Arlene.
Noi have un filia, e su nomine es Dawn.
Yo have Occidental amicos in 16 landes, e noi communica via lettres e
con li Cosmoglotta jurnale, e in li internet con email.
Cordialmen,

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March 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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