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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Fwd: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 15 May 1999 06:43:08 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (127 lines)

>X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1
>Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:20:01 -0700
>To: International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>
>From: "Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Fwd: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!
>Cc: [log in to unmask] (Chris Burd)
>
>Chris BURD sent me the following message:
>
>Don,
>
>You, too, are subject to the Farris effect. Could you please
>re-send my last message to the list?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Chris
>
>I answered this message directly to Chris, thinking it was to me. Maybe
>he'd be kind enough to post my answer to the list, since my copy is on my
>machine at work...
>
>The "Farris effect" is one in which it is the sender's address, not the
>list address, which is posted in the "Reply-To:" field. The respondent
>clicks on the "reply" button and sends the resulting message to one person,
>not the entire list. My work machine is subject to this, but my home
>machine is not. I don't know what the cause is.
>
>----
>
>>X-Mailer: inMAIL [http://www.islandnet.com/inmail.html]
>>Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:42:29 (PDT)
>>From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Burd)
>>Organization: Catchword Information Design
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!
>>X-Rcpt-To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>> Reage al Chris BURD (per Mike FARRIS):
>>>
>>> > > Criticising Esperanto on grounds that no proponents of Esperanto have
>>_ver_
>>> > claimed
>>> > > (AFIK) is a cheap shot (like criticising Occi or IALA for not being
>>culturally
>>> > > neutral).
>>> >
>>> > The closest thing I've heard to such a claim is from own Don Harlow,
>>> > who's written:
>>> >
>>> > "It is, of course, relatively easy to produce a piece of Esperanto
>>> > prose that is 'immediately comprehensible' to the native English
>>> > speaker, by the simple expedient of avoiding
>>> > compound words..."
>>> >
>>> > Taken literally, this seems to say that Eo passages without
>>> > compound words are typically comprehensible to English speakers,
>>> > or at least as comprehensible as their Interlingua/e equivalents.
>>> > That strikes me as a bit optimistic.
>>> >
>>> (a) _Relatively_ easy. I believe I was speaking of the effort
>>> involved in a conscious, dedicated attempt to write a piece of
>>> Esperanto prose that an English-speaker could understand at sight,
>>> not the chances of some English-speaker's immediately understanding a
>>> piece of randomly-written Esperanto prose that eschewed compounds.
>>
>>That's undoubtedly what you *meant* to say, but there's nothing in
>>the context supporting the notion of a "conscious, dedicated
>>attempt". Now, if you'd omitted the comma after "speaker", the
>>sentence could be interpreted to mean what you want it to say, but
>>as it is, you have introduced an eliptical construction that changes
>>the meaning subtly.
>>
>>Admittedly, I'm being a precisionarian, but after all I did say
>>"taken literally".
>>
>>> (b) Nevertheless, the passage you quote was written some years before
>>> I had occasion to enter some of the vocabularies from Baghy's _La
>>> Verda Koro_ (a book written by a Hungarian for Hungarian Esperanto
>>> students) into an HTML page and noticed that some 80+% of the
>>> noun/verb/adjective/adverb vocabulary used by Baghy was near-cognate
>>> with English. So perhaps not quite so optimistic (perhaps you
>>> wanted to say "over-optimistic"?)
>>
>>It's called understatement. But how can you have a near cognate?
>>Something is either cognate or not cognate. One can talk of cognates
>>in a narrower or broader sense of course, but any given word will
>>either fit or not fit any given definition.
>>
>>> after all. (It's the particles
>>> that'll kill ya -- just as they do in Interlingua. Similarly, the
>>> subsystem words -- correlatives, pronouns, numerals -- are more or
>>> less equally comprehensible, or incomprehensible, in the two
>>> languages, as far as I can tell -- numerals are, of course, the
>>> nicest.)
>>
>>Well, when it comes to the relative intercomprehensibility of
>>different languages, there's no point speculating or arguing from
>>anecdote, not after the first dozen rounds, anyway. What I'm
>>attempting to do now is gather some hard evidence in the area.
>>
>>Anyway, before I sign off, I'll state my opinion that the whole
>>issue of the comprensibility vis-a-vis monlingual English-speakers
>>is vastly overemphasised. (This doesn't specifically target anything
>>you've said here.) English-speakers are not fertile ground for
>>IALs, for the simple reason that they have little to gain from
>>a decline in English dominance. (Some of us obviously feel
>>differently, but we're hardly typical.) It's telling that
>>most strongly American-based of the languages discussed here,
>>Lojban, is generally promoted by its users on its purely
>>linguistic qualities, and not as practical means of international
>>communication. (Despite which, I think it's quite an interesting
>>project.)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Chris
>>
>
>-- Don HARLOW
>http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
>(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)
>
>
>

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November 2002, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 1998, Week 5
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