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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Occidental affixes: was: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 16 May 1999 21:36:19 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (349 lines)

"Donald J. HARLOW" wrote:
 
> [kut]
 
> As anyone (with an ounce of sense) can see, every one of these words ha=
s a
> meaning and is, therefore, legal and usable. I leave most of the matchi=
ng
> up of synonyms as an exercise for the gentle reader. Enjoy.
 
There's more to come.
 
> [1] As has been pointed out before, there is a potential ambiguity here=
:
> are we having someone set the fire, or are we having the fire set by
> someone? As Zamenhof replied when this question was raised to him: if t=
he
> distinction really worries you, you can plug in an extra -ANT- or -AT- =
to
> make the distinction clear.
 
Why? If it is so simple why add that much more unneeded baggage?
 
>
> Since Bob likes to quote unnamed "experts" who slam Esperanto, let me q=
uote
> the conclusion of the chapter by William GILBERT (former member of the
> Occidental Senate) on the Occidental word-formation system in his
> _Planlingvaj problemoj_ (La Laguna: Stafeto, 1962):
 
My last post had a name on it, can't you read?
 
> "It is to be concluded that the affixes in Occidental must be used with=
 
> great care:
>
> "a) The majority are "unproductive", although the opposite is written i=
n
> the grammars: -isar, -ificar, -(i)da, -esse, -(i)ta`, etc., cannot alwa=
ys
> be used, when _in practice_ you can't say: PETR/ISAR, MELIOR/IFICAR,
> SCR/IDA, BELL/ESSE RICH/ITA`...
 
First, Occidental is not an artificial creature where any old thing will =
"fit".
This is no different than in any ordinary language. Give me a break. And,=
 in all
languages using affixes one has to use some care, even in Esperanto. Chee=
zs.
 
Can you clarify what is meant by "the majority are 'unproductive', althou=
gh the
opposite is written in the grammars:" What is the "opposite" that is writ=
ten in
the grammars I don't know what this is supposed to be saying. And, Gilber=
t
doesn't mention that the affixes are listed in categories of usage, and t=
he ones
mentioned above would not be used to create such words as PETR/ISAR, etc.=
 This is
unbeliveably ignorant to say such a thing. Not all affixes are used on ev=
ery word
there is. He doesn't seem to know that, or remember it. These are the poo=
rest
examples so far that I have ever seen of the "problems" with Occidental a=
ffixes.
 
Some samples of words would be, acclimatisar, autorisar, baronisar, botan=
isar,
etc. None of his examples come even close to being in the right category =
for
attaching ISAR to them. Cheezs is this all you have?
 
>
> "b) Every affix in Occidental gives birth to derived words with a defin=
ite
> nature: -ache, -ade, -age... form only nouns, -aci, -al, -an, -ari... f=
orm
> only adjectives, -ar, -ear, -ettar... form only verbs. To the contrary,=
 in
> ESPO the suffixes general give birth to nouns, adjectives, verbs or adv=
erbs
> at will, thanks to the characteristic endings, on condition that this
> correspond -- obviously -- to notions with real meaning: kler/ig/o,
> kler/ig/a, kler/ig/i, kler/ig/e; promen/ad/o, promen/ad/a, promen/ad/i,=
 
> promen/ad/e.
 
This is why for one reason Esperanto comes up with so many artificial cre=
ations
that can be found in no usage whatsoever in international languages anywh=
ere.
This is where Occidental stands out over Esperanto. Further, the statemen=
t above
is unclear because it gives not one meaning of the affixes mentioned, thu=
s
leaving the reader to imagine all kinds of crap. By reading the meaning o=
f each
affix and the samples and the category it is instantly cleared up. This i=
s just
more Esperantist sidestepping and misleading. It appears Gilbert not only=
 went
back to Esperanto, but picked up their devious tactics also.
 
> "c) We find 82 affixes in the tiny 20-page brochure _L'Occidental en ci=
nq
> lec,ons_ by R. BERGER, and only 45 in the most complete ESPO courses. A=
 
> large part of the suffixes in Occidental have a definition that is very=
 
> ('treege') vague, poorly limited, or presents a nuance that is too abst=
ract
> or subtle for practical use.
>
> "=E6) Some suffixes come after the verb roots (REALISA/BIL 'realizable'=
), but
> other come after a special form of the verbs called the 'supine' by the=
 
> Latinists: REALISA/T/ION, VIS/ION (realization, vision). On the other h=
and,
> the suffix -bil comes after the supine in some cases: VIS/IBIL (visible=
).
> In vis/ion and vis/ibil, the verb root is vid-. Vider (to see).
 
First off, as de Wahl wrote in the post I sent earlier, the suffixes in O=
cc. give
it much more preciseness than Esperanto by their nuances that Esperanto c=
an't
come close to doing.
The number 82 above is another Esperantist exaggeration. There are 56 lis=
ted on
the last two pages with explanations, which is not mentioned by you or Gi=
lbert.
This is why I'm so glad to actually have the material at hand, so I can s=
ee who
is telling the real facts. The above is utter nonsense. Here, I'll list t=
hem for
you so you can count them yourselves. 82 my -----.
 
des-
dis-
in-
pre-
pro-
re-
Ok, so far how many is that? Please count with me.
-ade
-(i)da
-age
-aila
--ard
-ario
-arium
-atu
-er-ia
-er-ie
-ero
-e's
-essa
-ette
-ess
-ia
-ie
-iera
-iero
-iere
-ion
-ist
-ita'
-ite'
Hey, anybody still counting with me? Now, I'll turn the page and type the=
 rest.
Keep counting. And, I'm not going to post their meanings here. If you eve=
r decide
you are interested, then there is a simple way to find out the truth, and=
 the
real meanings.
-ment
-nt-ie
-on
-ore
-uor
-ura
-aci
-al
-an
-ari
-atri
-bil
-ie
-in
-iv
-nd
-ori
-os
-ut
-ar
-ear
-ettar
-ijar
-isar
Ok, that's Berger's actual list. Did you count them? 45 versus 56 is a fa=
r cry
from 82. Now, if you will take those 45 Esperanto affixes and figure out =
all the
"senses" of each one, then you've got a rocking number of things you have=
 to
remember for EACH Esperanto affixe, which is a lot harder than having a f=
ew more
precise affixes taken right from already used international affixes. How =
dumb do
the Esperantists think we are?
 
> "d) There are no affixes in OCC. to indicate several very useful
> relationships only because they do not exist in the Romance languages. =
For
> example, "because French, Spanish and italian have no common, generally=
 
> used suffix of augmentation, [-issim in OCC forms only adjectives], you=
 can
> perhaps speak in OCC. about PLUVI/ETT (ESPO 'pluveto')..., but it is qu=
ite
> impossible to speak of 'pluvego' and you must satisfy yourself with PLU=
VIE
> BATTANT (which is not the same thing!)... This is why our suffixes -ind=
 and
> -ebl are translated by a single -bil, so that I would never be so bold =
as
> to whisper to a young Occidentaliste (should such exist) that she is
> AMA/BIL, fearing that she will only understand that I find her
> 'amebla'...". [From _Lingvo kaj vivo_]
 
First, such words from Esperanto are not in any known language for the mo=
st part.
So they are EXTRA baggage that has to be memorized. Now, if the rest abou=
t
"augmentation" were true, how in the blazes did Occidental do it? You'll =
have to
go to the proper list to find that out. For, the above is worse than triv=
ia
nonsense.And, that from a man who left Occidental for the "professed" rea=
son in
his own writings so he could practice communism. That, by itself has noth=
ing to
do with his critique of Occidental, but his reasons, professed by himself=
, to go
to Esperanto had nothing to do with the grammar of Occidental per se. He =
just
felt Esperanto was more for the street people, and that was his target. H=
e should
have stuck with Occidental and reached all levels of society. Don, you sh=
ould
pick better sources for criticising Occidental's technicalities, since Gi=
lbert
hasn't done such a great job so far.
 
> "e) Rigorous use of the affixes according to their official definition,=
 
> supposing that their meaning is well understood in every case, often
> ('oftege') leads in OCC., as we have already seen, to derived words whi=
ch
> in fact cannot be found in the dictionaries and are never used.
 
"cannot be found in the dictionaries and are never used." What does this =
mean?
Which dictionaries and who never uses them. ALL of these socalled words, =
if I
understand Gilbert here, are easily recognized, whereas Esperanto words a=
re not.
I assume he is talking about such few words as developation. Nobody would=
 not
recognize develop or -ation when used. But, hardly any of the Esperanto w=
ords are
recognized by other than Esperantists. And, that's a fact jack. This crit=
icism so
far is failing miserably.
 
> Inversely,
> many derivations are quite incorrect according to the derivational rule=
s of
> OCC. itself. It is true that they are supposedly 'international', so
> already known by almost all peoples. The author of OCC. was of the opin=
ion
> that OCULIST, CONSTRUCTION, POPULARI, VERIFICATION, etc. are widely kno=
wn.
> It is immediately understood that such 'internationality' is very limit=
ed.
> In fact, OCC. blindly imitates the Romance languages and does not at al=
l
> respect its own rules regarding the meaning of affixes.
 
This is utter rubish. How can one blindly imitate something they can't se=
e? These
are typical words that seem to say a great deal and say nothing. And, not=
 
respecting its own rules. Give me a break, this guy is the worst I've rea=
d so
far, and he was a short time Occidentalist too. I had never read his writ=
ings
against Occ. before, but his OWN articles about this subject in Cosmoglot=
ta
knocks himself right in the head. Maybe I should post that and you all co=
uld see
that he's talking here through his teeth. Don, next time, please, pick so=
meone
who knows what they are talking about and isn't grinding a blunt axe.
 
> It is a very
> interesting and sagacious system for explaining the _etymological_
> mechanism of the Western languages. But it would be more honest to
> acknowledge that the regularity of the derivation is not a trustworthy =
aid
> in constructing the needed words, that in the end it is necessary to st=
udy
> a dictionary to acquire certainty about the generally accepted forms.
 
This is true of EVERY language including Esperanto. I just posted a comme=
nt on
this fallacious kind of argument already so won't repeat myself.
 
> It
> would be more honest to acknowledge that for the great majority of peop=
les
> OCC. is much more difficult than ESPO, although it is obviously easier =
than
> national languages."
 
Great false summation, as usual with you know who.
 
> (pp. 46-48. Numerous examples from which Gilbert draws these conclusion=
s
> are given in the preceding 5-1/2 pages.)
 
Bring on the examples please, that's where the proof is or isn't not what=
 you
just posted. The above is basic over used water.
 
Sorry, Don, but this doesn't wash, and anybody who has read the Occidenta=
l
material knows it. Is this the best you can do?:
 
Oh, I forgot, De Wahl was a nazi bigot who hated Esperanto and Z and sick=
ed the
nazis on them. I forgot that important grammar point in Occidental's favo=
r.
 
Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~

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October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
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September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
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June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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