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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Logic in Esperanto & Ido (estis: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!)

From:

Marcos Franco <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 19 May 1999 10:16:59 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (157 lines)

On Tue, 18 May 1999 06:48:43 -0400, Ken Caviness
<[log in to unmask]> skribis:
 
 
>>    I will accept this.  But it seems to me that Ido has more
>>regularity to some extent than Esperanto. =20
>
>That is certainly true, in some ways.  Ido separates out some =
words/affixes
>that in Esperanto have two meanings, and carefully limits which suffixes
>can be used with which words.  The "-ala" suffix instead of directly =
adding
>an "-a" is such an example.  From my own observation and comments made =
by
>some long-time Idists, I must mention that it is unclear to me if the =
more
>precise derivation scheme is an advantage here or not:  there seems to =
be a
>tendency to transgress and revert to a less-regimented system as in
>Esperanto. =20
 
Yes, this is true. With Ido's system you'll almost always need to use
the -ala form for derived adjectives, as the -a form means "which is
-o", and that's not the usual meaning we look for when adjectivizing a
noun. On the other hand, Esperanto system is rather imprecise, having
the -a derivated word several posible meanings.=20
 
One thing I usually miss on both systems is a way to express genitive.
Eo uses the -a form (which, as I've said, has already other meanings),
and Ido uses the -ala form, which suffers the same problem. I've
always thought of _adding_ the adjectival ending (-a) to the
noun/pronoun as a way to make genitive (eg. kuirejo de la domo > domoa
kuirejo). Btw, this would not be a new feature in the language, as
it's already done with personal pronouns (mi>mia, vi>via...).=20
 
>But on the plus side you don't have the "broso/kombilo"
>asymmetry in correct Ido.
 
Yes, this is something that makes Ido easier, because you always know
that the -o form means "action of the verb" and the instrument form
ends with -ilo. But I don't find very comfortable to express all
instrumental nouns with the suffix -ilo, and this is not fully
implemented in Ido. There are nouns of objects that end with -o, and
if you want to derive a verb you can't do it simply by -i (cause Ido's
derivation must be bidirectionally consistent, unlike Eo's), but you
need to use a suffix (or added root), like -uz-, -ag-, etc.=20
 
I think it would have been better if the -o were used for all objects
and were the verbal noun ("action of") the suffixed one, or even
better, given a proper ending, like -io (very usual in Latin, in words
like opinio, konstruktio, relatio...). That way we'd have:
 
brosi -> broso (the object); brosi -> brosio (the action)
kombi -> kombo (the object); kombi -> kombio (the action)
 
Btw, consistency is kept:
 
broso -> brosi (the verb)
kombo -> kombi (the verb)
 
>different people will have different preferences here.  More =
importantly,
>Ido _uses_ its affixes less, relying on many new words.  Of course there
>are Esperantists who do the same thing, but to my mind this is evitenda,=
 on
>the average it increases everyone's vocabulary-learning load.
 
I find good in Ido to have some non-derived antonyms for very usual
words, like malbona -> mala, maljuna -> olda, malmulta -> poka, etc.
Mal- words in Esperanto are sometimes a bit overcharging, and I don't
find it fastidious to have to learn 2025 Ido words instead of 2000 Eo
words to speak the language if I in exchange I can get rid of that
annoying overcharging.=20
 
>>Why do E-o words ending in '-a=FD' fall in three different parts of=20
>>speech (serious question, not a dig)? =20
>
>Excellent point.  I would have been happier if words like "morga=F9",
>"balda=F9", etc., had been created originally with standard endings.  As=
 it
>is, we can add endings (lia balda=F9a vizito =3D his soon visit, soon =
used as
>an adjective), but why shouldn't all adverbs end with "-e" by default?
>(All the rest do, I believe.) =20
 
There are adverbs which end with neither -e nor -a=F9, like nun, jes,
nur, neniam, tiel... I think it'd be not practical to have all those
adverbs ending in -e, but the -a=F9 ones (the -a=F9 adverbs, not the rest
of -a=F9 words) could certainly do. I think the -a=F9 ending was made to
keep certain adverbs as "underived", as "direct" ones, but I don't
know the reason (perhaps because they're so in natural languages...).
 
 
>there are some prepositions:  anta=F9   (before / in front of), ^cirka=F9
>(around), la=F9 (according to),
>
>and then we have two conjunctions:  a=F9 (or), malgra=F9 (in spite of). =
=20
>
>But I know of two words that don't fit into these categories:
>
>"Adia=F9!" (goodbye) is an interjection, and "na=F9" (nine) is a numeral=
 --
>treated differently in Esperanto than other parts of speech.
>
>I don't know of any reason for these "-a=F9" words.  I put up with them,=
 but
>if I were designing my own planlingvo, they wouldn't have gotten their
>collective nose in the door.
 
I think -a=F9 is good in prepositions like anta=F9 or so. Ido makes them
end in -e (ante) and I find that an error, because they're not
adverbs. Moreover, you sometimes feel the need to derive an adverb
from them (antee), and the -ee ending you come with is not very
pleasant.
 
>Although these words are to a certain extent "artificial", they have =
roots
>and motivation in natural languages.  For instance in the Romance =
languages
>interrogatives and demonstratives frequently (but not uniformly!) start
>with the /k/ sound, in English the demonstratives generally start with =
/th/
>(changed to /t/ in Esperanto), etc.  And of course the whole idea of
>representing this words in a pattern is completely natural.
>
>I think I've previously mentioned that I never suggest tackling these =
words
>without some fairly corny mnemonic tricks, but for passive use of =
Esperanto
>the best and easiest method is just to print a copy of the correlative
>table and keep it next to your list of affixes.
 
I've always wondered why Zamenhof didn't take better memorizable
endings for his correlative words. For example -ol (mnemonizable from
LOko) for -e, and -e (which is the default adverbial ending) for -el.
-em (from tEMp) would also be better than -am, though I think "tiem"
would be dangerously similar to "tien", while the similarity between
"tiam" and "tian" is less tending to provoke confussion, as they
(being different PoS) would not appear on the same place of a
sentence.=20
 
>than correlatives.  However, these and other modifications cause other
>difficulties, which would require extensive redesign of the language.  =
In
>my opinion it's not worth it.  But for those currently designing a =
language
>I have some suggestions!
 
Well, if you've read my last postings, you should feel invited to
express those suggestions :)
 
 
 
Saludos,
Marcos

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January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
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March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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June 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 3
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April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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