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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 13 May 1999 23:49:50 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

Ken Caviness wrote:
 
> [kut]
> ...
>
> You're talking about at-sight recognition _only_, not ease of learning,=
 not
> ease of use, not active vs. passive use, not for whom, ....
 
No I am NOT talking about at-sight only. That is an old Esperantist argum=
ent that
has been disproven over and over again. You can learn the grammar of Occi=
dental in
20 minutes or less. And, become fluent in a weekend in Occidental with a =
partner
to practice with. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT at sight only, PERIOD. And, even=
 if I
were, Occidental would win out and you know it, that's why you have to ke=
ep coming
back with the false argument, "you certainly can't be talking about usage=
 of the
language."
 
>
>
> >Not how many I can get into a Odd Fellows Hall with a special
> >group language. You are totally wrong here. Occidental has never been
> presented to
> >the public.
> >It has been presented to the very small group of IALists over the
> >years.
>
> So what were all those former Occidentalists doing through the years?  =
Did
> they only talk to other IALists?  Very odd -- unbelievable, actually.
 
For the most part, I think they did. No it is not unbeliveable at all.
 
>
> >Now, what I am saying, is, put up or shut up, and show people Occident=
al
> >along with your Esperanto and see what the fall out is.
> ...
> >Nonsense, get on with the test. Expose people fairly to Occidental and=
 
> Esperanto
> >at the same time, which no good Esperantist would ever do, and then se=
e
> who knows
> >what they are talking about. I have started doing this as of a little =
over
> a month
> >ago. I let them read, since I don't speak Esp, BOTH, that is BOTH
> Occidental and
> >Esperanto without comment, other than, can you understand this, and if=
 so,
> what
> >does it say.
>
> As I said in a previous message, I think that a comparative test would =
be
> very instructive, but not, of course, the type of test you describe.  M=
y
> contention is that although each planlingvo has certain pros & cons, in=
 
> many ways Esperanto is a better choice than Occidental (for instance). =
 You
> are only testing _one_ feature.  It's a good feature, one that (la=F9 m=
i)
> Occidental, Interlingua, Novial and others share, and even Ido and
> Esperanto to a slightly lesser extent.  But the latter have other
> well-known advantages which more than make up for rating only an 5 inst=
ead
> of a 6 in one event.
 
Again, you misread me. The second step is to teach the people whichever l=
anguage
they choose between the two. And, then compare how long it takes to becom=
e fluent
in each. Again, Occidental will win hands down.
 
> >Do you, as a died in the wool Esperantist, have the ------- to do the
> >same fairly, openly, and on a level playing field with the general pub=
lic.
>
> Of course, don't forget that a _fair_ test would take into account more=
 
> than your precious at-first-sight-guessability-for-the-privileged.  How=
's
> your gumption on that?
 
Again, you misread me. The second step is to teach the people whichever l=
anguage
they choose between the two. And, then compare how long it takes to becom=
e fluent
in each. Again, Occidental will win hands down....
 
> >I'm up for the test, and in fact, am doing it almost every day. Are yo=
u?
>
> I noticed that the silence on your end was deafening when (was it a mon=
th
> ago?) I first mentioned developping a test which tested more than mere
> at-sight-recognition.
 
Not so. Who was the first to offer material for maf to use in his test?
 
> As I said, I'll think about some possibilities.  If any sam-grup-an-o-j=
 
> have suggestions, they would be welcome.  And Bob, although the results=
 of
> such a test might show that "more planned" planlingvoj are better in so=
me
> ways than "more natural" planlingvoj, I think you might be interested i=
n
> contributing to this project, too.  After all, you have far more time
> available than the rest of us (if you're still working full time on Occ=
 &
> RLR), and according to your messages you're confident that Occidental i=
s
> better than all comers in all events.  So what do you have to lose?
 
Absolutely nothing. But, why place so much of the burden on me "because I=
 have
more time"?
 
> >Don't be afraid to do it, ...
> >I can't help it if your mind can't see the light when it is placed
> >in front of it. ...
> >do the same fairly, openly, and on a level playing field with the
> >general public. ...
> >Please, please, take me up on this, and promise to be fair, open,
> >and impartial.
>
> Bob, insisting that the strengths of various planlingvoj be tested by o=
ne
> and only one type of instrument is like belittling the world Sumo wrest=
ling
> champion because someone else wins the marathon.  When I hear you say (=
like
> I have repeatedly) that the various planlingvoj mentioned in this forum=
 
> have different strengths and weaknesses -- yes, in some areas Occidenta=
l is
> better than Esperanto, in others Esperanto is better than Occidental --=
 
 
Name one.
 
> then I'll know that you are on the road to fairness and impartiality.  =
But
> maybe _you're_ afraid of the Sumo wrestler, hmmm?
 
1. Occidental can be read and understood easier than Esperanto.
2. Occidental can be learned and used easier than Esperanto.
3. Occidental is much more far reaching than Esperanto in its abilities t=
o cover
any category from science, to working machines [instructions, etc.] to pr=
aying to
whatever.
 
Always the same fals arguments.
1. Occidental is only passive, you can't use it actively. Such nonsense. =
If that
were true, noone could ever learn or use it.
Why don't you start using it Ken? With your training, you could be using =
it by
your next post, literally. But, we don't want you to disprove your point,=
 now do
we? I know you can do it, so why do you refuse?
 
Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~

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