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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 15 May 1999 17:19:39 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

Je 11:27 PM 14.05.99 -0700, Robert J. Petry skribis:
 
>Ken Caviness wrote:
>
>[kut]
>
>> .  I'd be happy for you to show it to
>> me, though.
>
>I have my BIG doubts about that statement, my friend.[kut]
 
Doubt away, my friend!  The statement I made which you "kut" (of course)
was that Occidental really doesn't seem unique among many similar
planlingvoj, except for _numbers_ (an argument obviously unimportant to you
since you yourself disallow it in Esperanto's case).  There are _many_
languages listed in Dulichenko  which fit your idea of an "INTER language",
at least as far as I can determine from your "hints" and circumlocutions.
But I recognize that it's _your_ definition, not mine, so I asked for
clarification:  if you can show me how Occidental is _unique_ then we'll
define "INTER language" =3D language having such and such unique
characteristics and then it will be clear that Occ is the _only_ one. =20
 
Your current definition is circular.  Reread your "hints" purporting to
explain the term, please.  You say Occidental is the only INTER language,
and then ask us to use those words to get a feel for the meaning of "INTER
language".
 
It's just hype, isn't it, Bob?  I ask you for a definition of your term,
and you hand out more hype.  I explain that Occidental appears to me to
have exactly the advantages and disadvantages of other naturalistic
planlingvoj, but ask you to show me how it differs, and you "have BIG
doubts" that I really want you to answer the question.  Well, to my
satisfaction it has been demonstrated that (1) Occ is a good naturalistic
planned language, no more, no less, and (2) your statements to the contrary
are semantically empty.  I have _no_ more doubts about either of these=
 points.
 
Moral:  Those who prefer naturalistic planned languages should take a
serious look at Occidental, unless they also prefer an active user-base, in
which case Interlingua might be a better buy.  Those who (ekzemple mi)
think there's something beyond naturalism might look farther afield.
 
>> Esperanto is more logical and exception-free, fewer rules and
>> exceptions (sub-rules), etc.  (No, I'm not talking about any 16 rules.
>> Just tell us how to conjugate all verbs, for instance.  It's simpler in
>> Esperanto.  Tell us how to change verbs to nouns.  It's simpler in
>> Esperanto.  Et cetera.)
>
>Typical bureaucratic response. i.e. Let's not DO IT let's get up a study=20
>group to see if we should do it, how, when, why, and see if we can get=20
>funding, and then there is the hope Bill Gates might be talked into....=20
>on the other hand the University protocol restricts this type of plan,=20
>so we need to set up another study test to see if we can get past the U.=20
>restrictions, and then, of course, the Library of Congress will want to=20
>give a number to the results, as soon as we can get over the first test,=20
>to test if we should test the folks that are going to test the public=20
>with the test we are going to test with the public. But, first, we must=20
>test the waters to see if such a test has a reasonable chance of being=20
>tested by the people who will want to test our thesis for wanting to test=
=20
>the test and then we need to plan how to test the double blind test before=
=20
>we can test the test that will test the public who will ultimately test=20
>whether our test is testable or not.
 
WHAT?! =20
 
(I quote your entire paragraph above in hopes that even you will see that
it has nothing _what_so_ever_ to do with what I wrote.)
 
Please stop talking nonsense, Bob.  Kindly reread my statement:  I'm not
putting anything off, I'm making a comparison _now_.  No, don't bother
rereading, I'll say it again, more clearly:  Esperanto is more logical and
exception-free (than Occidental), it has fewer rules and exceptions (or
call the exceptions "subrules" if you prefer).  And I'm not claiming that
one needs only 16 rules to explain Esperanto.  Whatever the number is, it
_is_ less than for Occidental.  EdW had to add grammatical complexity in
order to attain the degree of "naturalness" he desired.  Well and good!
That's his design criteria showing.  Fine!  But it has its price, of
course:  Complexity.
 
How can we know that Esperanto (and other planlingvoj, too) has a simpler,
easier grammar than Occ?  Well, I mentioned a few points where E-o is more
simple and logical than Occ.  To be sure, we'd have to go down the entire
list and add 'em up, but a few randomly chosen items may indicate which way
the wind lies.  Thus I ask again, take a look at (for instance) how to
conjugate all verbs in Occidental.  Express it as simply and concisely as
possible, while still covering all cases, all exceptions.  You see, it's
simpler in Esperanto, right?  Try another data point, tell us how to change
verbs to nouns in Occidental.  Ah, there too, it's simpler in Esperanto.
Kaj tiel plu.  (Et cetera.)  THAT is what I'm getting at.  There is no
possible way to (justifiably) claim that Occidental is easier than
Esperanto in this area.  And there are many other planlingvoj, some simpler
in some areas, some in others.  I hope I made myself clear this time.
 
You've never given any support (except vocabulary for Westerners) to your
statements that Occidental is easier than Esperanto.  And I've pointed out
some of the areas where I think the reverse is actually the case: where
Esperanto is simpler and better than Occidental.  You've also never given
any support to your statements that Occidental is easier than or in any way
superior to Interlingua.  And I've spelled out why I think that although
they're quite similar, Interlingua is better in having clearer, more
unambiguous word-selection rules.  A long time ago I asked you if Occ had
any system of word selection, and you told me to wait.  Well, it is now
clear that that we'll be waiting until the cows come home -- it doesn't
have any such system, the words were selected by the author's gut feel for
internationality of words.  Not a bad system, but let's at least be honest
and admit that that _is_ the system, ok?
 
>And, your Esperanto like typical remarks, are, like you said about my
remarks in
>the part below I kut, are boooorrrrining.
 
Ne, amiko, vi denove miskomprenas min. =20
 
(Shall I draw you a picture with that?  Or did you just understand me -- in
Esperanto?  You seem to be misunderstanding me more in English than I would
have believed possible.)
 
What's _boring_ is not the information you post about Occidental, what's
_boring_ is having to dig through vast quantities of "hints" to find out
what you're actually saying!  And you must have noticed that you routinely
"kut", not the boring parts of my posts, but the parts you can't answer.
 
As far as information (in constrast to Pure Unadulterated HYPE) about Occ,
please carry on!  Occidental is definitely on my list of planlingvoj which
interest me, in spite of your P.U.H. posts.
 
^Gis reskribo,
 
Ken
 
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
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September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 3
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July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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