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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 17 May 1999 10:27:03 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (261 lines)

I'm cutting everything I've already commented on: <tranc^'!>
 
Je 05:03 PM 16.05.99 -0700, Robert J. Petry skribis:
 
>Ken Caviness wrote:
>
>> Je 11:55 AM 5/16/99 -0700, Robert J. Petry skribis:
>>
>> >Ken Caviness wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well, to my
>> >> satisfaction it has been demonstrated that (1) Occ is a good=20
>> >> naturalistic planned language, no more, no less, and (2) your=20
>> >> statements to the contrary are semantically empty.  I have _no_=20
>> >> more doubts about either of these points.
>> >
>> >First, it is not hype at all. As to your 1 and 2 points, they are
>> >"semantically" empty, and without any proof of any kind, and are=20
>> >only personal preferences.
>>
>> Does this mean that you _don't_ think that Occ is a good naturalistic
>> planned language?
>
>If you will notice, you added to that expression a personal uninformed
>judgment, "no more, no less". So, my reply stands.
 
Are you now putting on an equal basis your content-free definition with my
statement with which you disagree?  Didn't you go back and notice that your
definition of "INTER national" was circular?  Again, I don't expect us to
agree on everything, but it would be _so_ nice if you'd let us in on the
secret of what you're talking about.  Until then, that "definition" is Pure
Unadulterated Hype. =20
 
>> >Maybe you should take up sr. de Wahl's challenge.
>>
>> Please remind me what it is.
>
>Actually, I never said what it was.=20
 
Ha ha ha!  Kiel amuzig^e.
 
>But, now that you've asked, here it is.
 
Dankon/Mersi!
 
>In his articul "Facilita' del aprension, he wrote:
>
>Mem esperantistes qui prende seriosi li nov naturalistic direction in L.I.=
 e
>aprecia multcos in it, reprocha nos ta'men, que malgre' semblant facilita'
>comprender li lingue (almen por li educat persones de Occidental cultural)=
=20
>it es tre desfacil scrir e parlar it, pro li inregulari vocabularium e=20
>parolformation,=20
 
>[that argument has been carried on for years by the die hard Espists=20
>and others and use
>it as their reason for not learning Occ. I wonder if they will ever be=20
>able to come up with an original viable argument?],=20
 
Well, I'm glad to see that this weak point in the Occidental propaganda was
as obvious to folks back then as it is now.  And I expect one doesn't have
to be a die-hard Esperantist to see it.
 
>que pro su intern economie de
>paroles li practic conossentie de Espo es acquisitet in plu curt=20
>tempore; e que just li possibilita' formar regularmen derivates "per=20
>bon differentiat affixes" es un insuperabil qualita' de Espo, quel=20
>tamen es superior a omni L.I. sur neolatin base.
 
Well, I can't read Occidental quite as well as Interlingua, and certainly
not as well as some other languages, but if I understand the above
statement correctly I can't subscribe to it.  But I do say that if
"naturalness" (=3D similarity to certain ethnic languages) is bought at the
expense of regularity, the price was too high.  I have frequently said that
the goal should be _fewer_ exceptions, not _more_ (which is the path
naturalistic planlingvoj take). =20
 
>Ti argumentes posse forsan applicar-se ad Interlingua de Prof. Peano, ma=20
>nullmen al Occidental. [Then he goes on to explain clearly why.=20
 
Well, trot it out, trot it out!  Again you type page after page of hype and
then quit just before there's any risk of actually saying something!
Probably this explanation is just what would have cleared up all these
misunderstandings and converted all auxlangers to fervant Occ'ists.  Come
on, man, don't quit now!
 
>Then in the midst of the 5 age articul he says this:]
>
>In Esperanto on simplicmen excamota li verita' que it contene in su=20
>vocabularium mult mil exceptiones sin minimal etymologic o logic=20
>coherentie! Yo proposi al seniroes Esperantistes prender un conosset=20
>complet vocabularium, p.ex. Bennemann, e contar li paroles queles in=20
>Espo forma un exception proque ili sta extra li derivation normal, a=20
>queles corresponde in Occidental regulari international
>derivates; e )2 far li sam calcul invers por Occ e yo paria que tal=20
>exceptiones va esser in Espo 100 vez plu quam in Occ! [that's it,=20
>that's his challenge.]
 
Ah!  Well again, if I've understood this correctly, it's just fluff.  One
would have to define what is to be considered an exception in vocabulary,
and (noting  the word "etymologic" I suspect that EdW is defining
"exception" in terms of ethnic languages.  Well, it's quite true that some
Esperanto root words although etymologically derived from ethnic languages
were modified for various reasons.  But no one ever said that they
shouldn't be.  Perhaps that's a design criteria for Occidental, but it
isn't for Esperanto.  If Zamenhof foresaw a conflict between two root
words, he modified one or used a word from another source.  I suppose
that's why some have said that the creation of Esperanto was more a work of
art than of science.  If EdW is actually using an etymological argument
against Esperanto, then he has certainly abandoned Occidental and is
speaking Interlingua-IALA in his grave right now.
 
Anyway, again the argument for Occidental seems to hinge on misrepresenting
other planlingvoj.  But feel free to translate the quote into a language
which I understand better (English, Fran=E7ais, Esperanto, Deutsch), perhaps
I've missed something important.  For instance, I have no clue as to the
meaning of the words "excamota" kaj "seniroes".  "conosset" seems to show
some trace of a verb-ending system which if it exists I'd be happy to learn
about.  "sta" I've seen in other posts but I don't remember is it was
related to "stay", "stand" or "estar" (to be).
 
>On fanfarona pri regularita del grammatica e tace pri li 10 000=20
>exceptiones in li vocabulariuim! Yo ha jettat li gante! Qui va=20
>sublevar it" [Ken Cav.?] Yo attende response!
 
Ok!  Now we're getting to it.  Please send me a dictionary of Occidental,
or make one available free of charge online, and let's get to it.  Possibly
in view of constraints on your time you might want to go with a smaller Occ
vocabulary list.  That's ok too, as long as it's large enough for a
representative sampling.  For comparison online Esperanto dictionaries in
various lengths are atingeblaj from the site of the Virtuala
Esperanto-Biblioteko. =20
 
>Li ulterior assertion de sr Collinson, que solmen Espo possede li=20
>capabilita' formar derivates secun volunta', es fals,=20
 
Of course.  I'm VERY suspicious of statements to the effect that only such
and such a language has such and such a capability, whether Collinson makes
such a statement about Esperanto or whether Petry makes such a statement
about Occidental!
 
>proque Occ have it in ancor plu grand
>mesure, possedente apu li general anc plu specialisat affixes, queles=20
>da li possibilita' formar nuancies mult plu precis quam Espo. ....
 
Ok, that's a claim, let's see the proof.  Otherwise, mia amiko, it's P.U.H.
 
...
>I notice you keep avoiding my challenge to put yours arguments into
>Esperanto here.
 
Sometimes I think that if I did, and if you didn't read the messages, you'd
misunderstand my statements less than currently.  However you insist on
returning to this at-sight-recognizability argument, which I've treated
before.
 
>> Iu-kaze, your post "Li extrem de simplicita'?" (as usual) doesn't=20
>> list an author.  But it sounds like someone who should know better,=20
>> but is hoping that his audience either won't understand enough=20
>> Occidental or enough Esperanto to realize the fallacies of his=20
>> argument.
>
>Yes, it was based on material first mentioned by Esperantists,=20
 
who?
 
>and then carried on for the public consumption in a non-Esperantist=20
>magazine.=20
 
what?
 
>Hope you read the follow-up I sent quoting Esperantists=20
 
who?
 
>about this subject.
 
Please get in the habit of giving credit for these quotes.  You seem to
think that anything you quote will be equally accepted, but that simply
isn't reasonable.  I gather that you believe implicitly everything printed
in K/Cosmo, but such is not my custom.
 
>And, since the information came from Esperantist sources originally,=20
 
what sources?
 
>Have you gone out in the street yet with Esperanto and see how much
>understanding you get from strangers? You need to do that Ken, and=20
>then try it with Occidental and see what happens.
 
We know that first-sight minimal recognition is more important to you than
overall speed in developing fluency.
 
>> However, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Bob:  it is not
>> appropriate for you to post a message here on auxlang making your=20
>> customary wildly inflated claims, and then refuse to back them up. =20
>> If the forum is good enough for the claims, it's good enough for=20
>> the evidence, too.
>
>You keep ignoring the most potent evidence there is. Actual experience.=20
>I keep challenging you to go out and test Occ and Esp in the public, or=20
>posting your Esperanto here without translation, and you keep avoiding=20
>any mention of that in your replies.=20
 
I keep telling you that I'll trade a little of your vaunted first-sight
recognition (which is less than your hype fanfarons) for more regularity.
I keep telling you that it's ridiculous to have one comparison test which
tests for "naturalness" (similarity to a group of ethnic languages) and
then test all planlingvoj by that criterion.  We're at a more basic level
than your test, Bob.  We're debating regularity vs. naturalism, and you
keep saying "Get out there and try this test for naturalism!"  Don't you
notice anything odd about that?  +Why+ should I try your test for something
I'm not interested in testing?  And +why+ do you keep asking me to perform
your test whenever I ask you to substantiate your claims that Occidental is
more _regular_ than Esperanto.  Please understand, that's the question
which I find interesting, not whether more words in Occidental look
familiar to an anglo-parolanto. =20
 
You claim that there are clear and logical word-construction techniques in
Occidental. =20
 
If so, that's _very_ interesting. =20
 
But if it's just hype, then even a speaker of the source languages will end
up with a heavier vocabulary-learning burden than would be the case in a
better planned language.
 
>> And incidentally, although you apparently continue to doubt my=20
>> interest in Occidental, let me repeat that any planlingvo with=20
>> a user base interests me greatly,=20
...
>> Well, my desk is about half clear, so you may
>> be hearing more from me soon.
>
>Why wait to come back to the Occ list.=20
 
I take it that that was a question?  La respondo estas en mia lasta frazo.
 
^Gis reskribo,
 
Ken
 
P.S.  By the way, I just read ahead and found Bob Petry's message giving a
list of Occidental affixes (unfortunately without meanings of indications
of when what can be used) and Don Harlow's comments on the inaccuracies in
the "bruli/estingi" posting on supposedly "incorrect" Esperanto words.
Putting the two together makes an interesting picture, doesn't it?  Perhaps
Occidental _doesn't_ allow the free use of affixes that Esperanto does, and
the Occidentalist author of the anti-Esperanto article is trying to apply
Occidental rules to Esperanto ... and then condemning it?  That would make
the article more a statement about Occidental than about Esperanto.  Hmmm.
 
Anyway, thanks to both gentlemen for posting _information_!  Dankon!
 
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 2
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
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August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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