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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 17 May 1999 08:08:27 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (139 lines)

Ken Caviness wrote:
 
> [kut]
>
> We know that first-sight minimal recognition is more important to you than
> overall speed in developing fluency.
 
Ridiculous. I have said you can learn fluency in Occ faster than Esp. so, what do
you mean? [kut]I keep telling you that I'll trade a little of your vaunted
first-sight
 
> recognition (which is less than your hype fanfarons) for more regularity.
> I keep telling you that it's ridiculous to have one comparison test which
> tests for "naturalness" (similarity to a group of ethnic languages) and
> then test all planlingvoj by that criterion.  We're at a more basic level
> than your test, Bob.  We're debating regularity vs. naturalism, and you
> keep saying "Get out there and try this test for naturalism!"  Don't you
> notice anything odd about that?
 
Yes, you're afraid to make the test which will prove the general public isn't
interested in Esp. nor can they understand it, and that it is only
"international" with other Esperantists.
 
> +Why+ should I try your test for something
> I'm not interested in testing?  And +why+ do you keep asking me to perform
> your test whenever I ask you to substantiate your claims that Occidental is
> more _regular_ than Esperanto.  Please understand, that's the question
> which I find interesting, not whether more words in Occidental look
> familiar to an anglo-parolanto.
 
Simple, it does not matter what fact I bring up, you will ride right over it with
some exception and go on with another argument just for the dabate of it. I take
your statement above to be what I have felt all along, you really aren't
interested in Occ. just perpetuating a language that only adepts can understand
and no one else. I'm not interested in such a limited language. And, until you
can get beyond the nonsense of Esperanto is easier this, and that, which it isn't
then the discussion goes nowhere. You don't wish to test your thesis where it
counts, in public, you want to debate me down. You also don't read all my posts,
and both you and Don use the same dodges, like, "Why Bob, why don't you give
sources." I do. And, when you see the names of the Esperanto sources your
response is "oh, that was done by so and so who has {whatever your excuse) and
can't be trusted. This is the thing that gets me with you Esperantists. Quote
another non-esperantist, why they don't know jack. Quote an Esperantist and some
excuse is give by you or Don about why they can't be trusted.
 
The fact is, Esperanto is a great language, for Esperantists, and that is as far
as it goes period. You have no ability to conceive it appears, what a detriment
this is in the short and long term. An "international" language that is only
understood by it's own speakers. That's even worse than Engllish, Spanish,
Italian, etc. For, most of us can understand some of those languages, but
virtually no one can understand much Esperanto at all, except when the radicals
are used without much of the affixiation Esp uses.
 
I have a suggestion Ken, stick with Esperanto, and read to yourself, except when
you have to have conversation with it, and then go to a congress, or a club, or
get the book that gives the addresses of Esperantists around the world and go
look for lthem. As for me, I will stick with Occidental and be slowly
communicating with all kinds of people without haveing to look for Occidentalists
to use it with. That is the reality of it. You are limited, and must wish to be
so. I am not, and in fact, if I want to look up some Esperantists I can even
communicate with them without learning Esperanto by using Occidental. Ain't it
great. This is the bottom line, and I'm not willing to step backwards in order to
learn a limiting language, that restricts me to a false 2,000,000 people I have
to look for.
 
Ti-ci es mi vidpunctu, mersi'.
 
>
>
> You claim that there are clear and logical word-construction techniques in
> Occidental.
>
> If so, that's _very_ interesting.
 
Yep, it is.
 
> But if it's just hype, then even a speaker of the source languages will end
> up with a heavier vocabulary-learning burden than would be the case in a
> better planned language.
 
Yeah, like almost every word in Esperanto is used no where else and has to be
memorized IN ADDITION to everything else. Now, that is really productive.
 
> >> And incidentally, although you apparently continue to doubt my
> >> interest in Occidental, let me repeat that any planlingvo with
> >> a user base interests me greatly,
 
Well order the 1999 addressarium with addresses of folks in 15 countries and get
going with it. My, what are you waiting for. And, just think, in addition to
that, you can even talk to all the Esperantists in Occidental and for the most
part, they will understand you. Besides, remember, you want to prove them right
by showing only the educated can learn it. So far, you have left their claim as
such in shambles. Oh, and I continue to doubt more and more as we go along. For,
when I was interested in Esperanto I didn't approach it with such desire to pick
it apart, before I even got started. But, of course, years ago I didn't know
about Occ. And, when I started to learn Occ I didn't approach it with "PROVE to
me it works, etc." I hit it with the attitude, let's see how this works and USE
it when I find out. A major difference. Oh, of course, a hobbyist interest in
other IAL's is different, and this is what I believe you are talking about, for
certainly it is not an interest in actually using it, for if it were, you would
already be doing so.
 
> ...
> >> Well, my desk is about half clear, so you may
> >> be hearing more from me soon.
> >
> >Why wait to come back to the Occ list.
>
> I take it that that was a question?  La respondo estas en mia lasta frazo.
>
> ^Gis reskribo,
>
> Ken
>
> P.S.  By the way, I just read ahead and found Bob Petry's message giving a
> list of Occidental affixes (unfortunately without meanings of indications
> of when what can be used) and Don Harlow's comments on the inaccuracies in
> the "bruli/estingi" posting on supposedly "incorrect" Esperanto words.
> Putting the two together makes an interesting picture, doesn't it?  Perhaps
> Occidental _doesn't_ allow the free use of affixes that Esperanto does, and
> the Occidentalist author of the anti-Esperanto article is trying to apply
> Occidental rules to Esperanto ... and then condemning it?  That would make
> the article more a statement about Occidental than about Esperanto.  Hmmm.
>
 
Oh give me a break Ken, this is total nonsense. A vain attempt at a put down. All
you are saying is that Esperanto is a free for all mess, and Occidental has real
structure, even though you thought you said something else.  The Esperanto
listings do not follow Esperanto rules for derivation, so it's a free for all.
Even your beloved Dr. Manders said as much. He certainly was no Occidentalist.
Please, just stick with your limited language, and we can stop this useless
attempt at besting one another, and get back to reality. You use Esperanto with
your LIMITED masses, and I'll continue to grow with and use Occidental to the
unlimited masses. That's all the proof we need. You do your thing and I'll do
mine.
 
Con grand cordialita',
Bob, x+O~

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