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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 17 May 1999 08:13:30 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (169 lines)

Don Harlow scribeva:
>Since Bob likes to quote unnamed "experts" who slam Esperanto, let me quote
>the conclusion of the chapter by William GILBERT (former member of the
>Occidental Senate) on the Occidental word-formation system in his
>_Planlingvaj problemoj_ (La Laguna: Stafeto, 1962):
>
>"It is to be concluded that the affixes in Occidental must be used with
>great care:
>
>"a) The majority are "unproductive", although the opposite is written in
>the grammars: -isar, -ificar, -(i)da, -esse, -(i)ta`, etc., cannot always
>be used, when _in practice_ you can't say: PETR/ISAR, MELIOR/IFICAR,
>SCR/IDA, BELL/ESSE RICH/ITA`...
 
Le description del affixos in occidental e interlingua es ante toto de
monstrar lor (their) function in le linguas occidental. Isto es de un
enorme adjuta pro comprender le linguas occidental pro nos qui non ha iste
vocabulario active desdel schola. In le mesme maniera on como face Gilbert
on pote monstrar que tutalmente logic usos de affixos in esperanto non es
acceptate como standard. Exemplo:
Mi povintus skribadi leterojn al vi se mi havintadus tempon.
 
Il ha esperantistas qui ha proponite tal manieras de scriber, ma - si il
non ha essite grande cambios durante le ultime annos quando io me non ha
interessate in le movimento de esperanto - isto non es acceptate.
 
La harartondisto tondemos mian hararon se mi donablas al li monon.
Le barbiero pote tonder mi capillos si io le pote dar le moneta.
(My trial at English:) The barber can cut my hair if I can give him money.
 
Ma on non construe tal frases in esperanto. Falta de information sempre
genera (generates) errores, e il non es honeste (fair) demonstrar lo que
non functiona in le systemo. On pote del altere latere dicer que si io non
usa le systema correcte, io tamen esser comprendite in occidental si io
scribe o dice: richificar, arrichizar.
 
>"b) Every affix in Occidental gives birth to derived words with a definite
>nature: -ache, -ade, -age... form only nouns, -aci, -al, -an, -ari... form
>only adjectives, -ar, -ear, -ettar... form only verbs. To the contrary, in
>ESPO the suffixes general give birth to nouns, adjectives, verbs or adverbs
>at will, thanks to the characteristic endings, on condition that this
>correspond -- obviously -- to notions with real meaning: kler/ig/o,
>kler/ig/a, kler/ig/i, kler/ig/e; promen/ad/o, promen/ad/a, promen/ad/i,
>promen/ad/e.
 
Alcun affixos es adjectivic altere es verbal secundo su natura. Io non vide
un differentia inter occidental e esperanto (o pro iste parte interlingua)
in iste discussion. On debe etiam (also, as well) pensar del facto que tu
(o Gilbert) compara _suffixos_ con _infixos_, e isto rende le comparation
un poco inequal.
 
Le veritate es que _-e_ solmente forma substantivos in occidental. E etiam
verbos, alqe como le -i pro infinitivo e pro pronomines personas e le -u
pro imperativo e pro persona e un sequente substantivo in le parolas
tabulari (esperantistas non dice que isto es un suffixo, illes dice que il
se tracta de un plen radice (stem) malgrado le facto que cata unu qui usa
su capite (head) videra que il se tracta de suffixos e infixos, benque
illos non es productive.
 
>"c) We find 82 affixes in the tiny 20-page brochure _L'Occidental en cinq
>lec,ons_ by R. BERGER, and only 45 in the most complete ESPO courses. A
>large part of the suffixes in Occidental have a definition that is very
>('treege') vague, poorly limited, or presents a nuance that is too abstract
>or subtle for practical use.
>
Le suffixos in occidental e interlingua es _multo vage_ viste que isto es
lor character in le linguas de fonte. Etiam pro isto, esperanto seligeva un
altere systema de affixos on poterea dicer.
 
In contination le duo linguas ha differente conceptos e il es irreal
comparar les in le mesme maniera que on non pote comparar le grammatica de
svedese e finno e dicer que le falta de articulos definite e indefinite in
finno decerea alque del aptitude de illo como lingua cultural, in le mesme
maniera que on non pote dicer que le facto que svedese ha le multo
agradabile casos _essivo_ e _translativo_ rende svedese plus povre. Il se
solmente tracta de duo manieras de describer le mesme natura, proque le duo
systemas lo besoniava.
 
>"=E6) Some suffixes come after the verb roots (REALISA/BIL 'realizable'), b=
ut
>other come after a special form of the verbs called the 'supine' by the
>Latinists: REALISA/T/ION, VIS/ION (realization, vision). On the other hand,
>the suffix -bil comes after the supine in some cases: VIS/IBIL (visible).
>In vis/ion and vis/ibil, the verb root is vid-. Vider (to see).
>
Isto es como le famose exemplos de _broso_ ma _combilo_ in esperanto.
Secundo Luchjo Z. le radices in esperanto era independente del parte del
oration (parts of speech) bros' es un radice substantival in esperanto,
durante que _komb-_ es un radice verbal. Pro isto on pote dicer _kombilo_
instrumento de pectination :combing device, ma un broso es un _brush_ e tu
pote etiam te _brush_.
 
>"d) There are no affixes in OCC. to indicate several very useful
>relationships only because they do not exist in the Romance languages. For
>example, "because French, Spanish and italian have no common, generally
>used suffix of augmentation, [-issim in OCC forms only adjectives], you can
>perhaps speak in OCC. about PLUVI/ETT (ESPO 'pluveto')..., but it is quite
>impossible to speak of 'pluvego' and you must satisfy yourself with PLUVIE
>BATTANT (which is not the same thing!)...
Tu pote naturalmente parlar de un pluvie torential que non solo es bon ma
etiam comprensibile in comparation con _pluvego_ (es isto un forma de
_placebo_). Si on non sape le systema, on non sape le systema.
 
>This is why our suffixes -ind and
>-ebl are translated by a single -bil, so that I would never be so bold as
>to whisper to a young Occidentaliste (should such exist) that she is
>AMA/BIL, fearing that she will only understand that I find her
>'amebla'...". [From _Lingvo kaj vivo_]
 
Tu es amande. Tu merita esser amate. (O como on lo esprima in occidental.
Del resto io comprende -ind habente le significato _que merita le amar_ e
io lo etiam usarea pro _paginda_, assi que io certo usarea un altere
maniera de expressar me in esperanto, si le situation esserea real.
 
 
>"e) Rigorous use of the affixes according to their official definition,
>supposing that their meaning is well understood in every case, often
>('oftege') leads in OCC., as we have already seen, to derived words which
>in fact cannot be found in the dictionaries and are never used. Inversely,
>many derivations are quite incorrect according to the derivational rules of
>OCC. itself. It is true that they are supposedly 'international', so
>already known by almost all peoples. The author of OCC. was of the opinion
>that OCULIST, CONSTRUCTION, POPULARI, VERIFICATION, etc. are widely known.
 
Isto es pro isto que in le linguas que ille parlava o sapeva isto era le
situation. Isto es etiam le bon cosa con un lingua como occidental (o in
plus alte grado interlingua) que on pote questionar tal (such) cosas e
postea ajustar le vacabulario secundo isto (accordingly).
 
>It is immediately understood that such 'internationality' is very limited.
>In fact, OCC. blindly imitates the Romance languages and does not at all
>respect its own rules regarding the meaning of affixes. It is a very
>interesting and sagacious system for explaining the _etymological_
>mechanism of the Western languages. But it would be more honest to
>acknowledge that the regularity of the derivation is not a trustworthy aid
>in constructing the needed words, that in the end it is necessary to study
>a dictionary to acquire certainty about the generally accepted forms. It
>would be more honest to acknowledge that for the great majority of peoples
>OCC. is much more difficult than ESPO, although it is obviously easier than
>national languages."
>
>(pp. 46-48. Numerous examples from which Gilbert draws these conclusions
>are given in the preceding 5-1/2 pages.)
>
In cata lingua on debe studiar le vocabulario, e io suppone (suppose) que
si le occidentalistas haberea interessate se plus in lor lingua quam in
polemicar con esperanto e novial e Deo sape qual, illo haberea facite un
plus grande successo, proque occidental lo meritava.
 
In le manos de sage personas occidental es un tremende fortia pro le
communication inter humanos, tanto ben como interlingua.
 
Io non considerava occidental quando io habeva sufficiente de esperantismo,
proque io non videva le movimento. Io voleva dedicar mi fortias eventual
(if any) a interlingua, que - secundo e Waringien e Gilbert - era multo
plus rigide quam occidental e secundo Claude Piron - in un interviu del
radio international de Helvetia - mortnaskiga (nascite morte) quando illo
(it, i.e. interlingua de IALA) in le mundo real, como on dice in le anglese
del medios, es "alive and kicking".
 
 
 
 
[log in to unmask]
Kjell Rehnstr=F6m
V=E4nortsgatan 87
752 64  UPPSALA
Tel. 018-50 22 35

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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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