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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Logic in Esperanto & Ido (estis: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu de Occidental!)

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 18 May 1999 06:48:43 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (187 lines)

[Please excuse the length of this message.  Paul brings up some excellent
points, and I got carried away talking about them.  --kc]
 
Je 08:06 PM 17.05.99 -0400, Paul O Bartlett skribis:
 
>    I will respond to only a couple of Ken's remarks. =20
 
>On Mon, 17 May 1999, Ken Caviness wrote:
>
>>                                 I have frequently said that
>> the goal should be _fewer_ exceptions, not _more_ [...]
>
>    I will accept this.  But it seems to me that Ido has more
>regularity to some extent than Esperanto. =20
 
That is certainly true, in some ways.  Ido separates out some words/affixes
that in Esperanto have two meanings, and carefully limits which suffixes
can be used with which words.  The "-ala" suffix instead of directly adding
an "-a" is such an example.  From my own observation and comments made by
some long-time Idists, I must mention that it is unclear to me if the more
precise derivation scheme is an advantage here or not:  there seems to be a
tendency to transgress and revert to a less-regimented system as in
Esperanto.  But on the plus side you don't have the "broso/kombilo"
asymmetry in correct Ido.
 
Doing away with the table of correlatives was a step backwards, in my
opinion, relying more on memorization and less on regular pattern.
 
On the vocabulary front, some Ido words seem to me to be an improvement
over Esperanto, some are harder for me, some changes don't matter a hoot
(and I don't really see the point in change for the sake of change).  But
different people will have different preferences here.  More importantly,
Ido _uses_ its affixes less, relying on many new words.  Of course there
are Esperantists who do the same thing, but to my mind this is evitenda, on
the average it increases everyone's vocabulary-learning load.
 
>Why do E-o words ending in '-a=FD' fall in three different parts of=20
>speech (serious question, not a dig)? =20
 
Excellent point.  I would have been happier if words like "morga=F9",
"balda=F9", etc., had been created originally with standard endings.  As it
is, we can add endings (lia balda=F9a vizito =3D his soon visit, soon used a=
s
an adjective), but why shouldn't all adverbs end with "-e" by default?
(All the rest do, I believe.) =20
 
You mention 3 parts of speech, but I think there are more.  Besides the -a=
=F9
adverbs:  amba=F9 (both), almena=F9 (at least), anka=F9 (also), ankora=F9 (s=
till),
anstata=F9 (instead of), apena=F9 (hardly), balda=F9 (soon), hiera=F9 (yeste=
rday),
hodia=F9 (today), kontra=F9 (against), kvaza=F9 (as if/though), morga=F9
(tomorrow), preska=F9 (almost),
 
there are some prepositions:  anta=F9   (before / in front of), ^cirka=F9
(around), la=F9 (according to),
 
and then we have two conjunctions:  a=F9 (or), malgra=F9 (in spite of). =20
 
But I know of two words that don't fit into these categories:
 
"Adia=F9!" (goodbye) is an interjection, and "na=F9" (nine) is a numeral --
treated differently in Esperanto than other parts of speech.
 
I don't know of any reason for these "-a=F9" words.  I put up with them, but
if I were designing my own planlingvo, they wouldn't have gotten their
collective nose in the door.
 
>Why does the correlatives table (which does not seem to exist
>outside of E-o, other languages getting along well without such a
>construction) stop where it does? =20
 
Again, good questions!  2 of them, to be exact.  I'll disentangle:
 
1. Why have correlatives at all?  -- from your insert:
 
>(which does not seem to exist outside of E-o, other languages getting=20
>along well without such a construction)=20
 
Actually, it seems to me that the correlative table is a very natural
thing.  Although I'll be the first to admit that there's no way that anyone
would recognize the words "at-sight", the overall pattern presumably is
inspired by similar (but incomplete) patterns in natural langauges.  For
instance in English we have:
 
        when, where, why, what, who, how
 
I smell a pattern!  Looks like question words start with "wh".  But, oh,
the disappointment! "who" is pronounced wrong and "how" is spelled wrong. =
=20
 
The incomplete pattern can be continued, though.  Adding some
demonstratives, we get:
 
        when, where, why, what, who, how
        then, there, ..., that, ..., ...
 
where I've left out terms that don't exist or don't fit the pattern.  But
check out the "when/then", "where/there" parallels!  Unfortunately "what"
and "that" are pronounced differently, and the word "thy" doesn't fit here,
etc.  I was going to say that there is no word "tho", but maybe that will
be official American someday instead of "though".  In any case, it's the
wrong meaning for the pattern.
 
In Esperanto the above table would be:
 
        kiam, kie, kial, kio, kiu, kiel
        tiam, tie, tial, tio, tiu, tiel
 
And there are also columns for "who's/whose" (aha! compare "those", which
doesn't fit in the same column), "what kind of", and "how much".  In a
similar way we can build words meaning "something", "nothing",
"everything", "anything", and "this thing" (in contrast to "that thing"),=
 etc.
 
Although these words are to a certain extent "artificial", they have roots
and motivation in natural languages.  For instance in the Romance languages
interrogatives and demonstratives frequently (but not uniformly!) start
with the /k/ sound, in English the demonstratives generally start with /th/
(changed to /t/ in Esperanto), etc.  And of course the whole idea of
representing this words in a pattern is completely natural.
 
I think I've previously mentioned that I never suggest tackling these words
without some fairly corny mnemonic tricks, but for passive use of Esperanto
the best and easiest method is just to print a copy of the correlative
table and keep it next to your list of affixes.
 
Oh, for comparison, the whole correlative table in Esperanto and then Ido's
"table" is given here=20
 
        <http://www.southern.edu/~caviness/Eo_unue/kritikoj.html#note9>. =20
 
There really is no usable pattern to the Ido version.
 
2. Why does the correlatives table stop where it does? =20
 
You have hit on my secret sorrow!  I would have much preferred for the
correlative table to fit seamlessly into the overall part-of-speech ending
and affix pattern of the language.  And incidentally, we're not alone in
this thought, witness the people who've tried to add "alia" (=3D other) to
the correlative table over the years, or to use "-(i)es" with words other
than correlatives.  However, these and other modifications cause other
difficulties, which would require extensive redesign of the language.  In
my opinion it's not worth it.  But for those currently designing a language
I have some suggestions!
 
>Why are there forms for motion toward but not motion from?
 
Hmmm, I dunno!  The Ido solution is to have neither, to just use
prepositions.  I guess the situation in Esperanto is asymmetric, but I
think the "motion toward" crops up more often, so maybe Zamenhof thought it
would be convenient to have.  I have a vague memory that someone who knew
Latin once told me that there was some precedent there, but I don't
remember what.
 
>> that's why some have said that the creation of Esperanto was more a work=
 of
>> art than of science.
>
>    This I can accept and approve of.  Perhaps the designers of some
>planlingvoj overlook this  But I am not overly enamored of pure art for
>its own sake as an end in itself, so I will allow other considerations
>into my personal calculus of evaluation.  That is why I prefer Ido over
>Esperanto, even if its prospects are not overly bright at present.
 
Good logic, I won't argue with you on this.  I think our evaluation calculi
are pretty similar, although perhaps I factor in current user base to a
greater extent. =20
 
I'm afraid that I'm an uncouth art-challenged type myself, but on its
behalf let me say that perhaps a little art is a good thing -- particularly
in that peculiarly human activity, language. =20
 
Who knows?  Maybe that's another point to add to your excellent essay on
criteria for success?!
 
Amike,
 
Ken
 
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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