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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Logic in Esperanto & Ido (estis: Re: Quel es do li spi'ritu

From:

Don HARLOW <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 18 May 1999 06:52:25 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (189 lines)

Reage al Ken CAVINESS:
 
> Je 08:06 PM 17.05.99 -0400, Paul O Bartlett skribis:
>=20
> >    I will respond to only a couple of Ken's remarks. =20
>=20
> >On Mon, 17 May 1999, Ken Caviness wrote:
> >
> >Why do E-o words ending in '-ay' fall in three different parts of=20
> >speech (serious question, not a dig)? =20
>=20
> Excellent point.  I would have been happier if words like "morga=B7",
> "balda=B7", etc., had been created originally with standard endings.  A=
s it
> is, we can add endings (lia balda=B7a vizito =3D his soon visit, soon u=
sed as
> an adjective), but why shouldn't all adverbs end with "-e" by default?
> (All the rest do, I believe.) =20
>=20
> You mention 3 parts of speech, but I think there are more.  Besides the=
 -a=B7
> adverbs:  amba=B7 (both), almena=B7 (at least), anka=B7 (also), ankora=B7=
 (still),
> anstata=B7 (instead of), apena=B7 (hardly), balda=B7 (soon), hiera=B7 (=
yesterday),
> hodia=B7 (today), kontra=B7 (against), kvaza=B7 (as if/though), morga=B7
> (tomorrow), preska=B7 (almost),
>=20
Kontray is most definitely a preposition. Ambay is ... I don't know=20
what, but not an adverb (a lot of people call it an irregular=20
adjective, but I don't think that's quite right either).
 
Ankay is one of those few strange particles, neither fish nor fowl,=20
which extend out beyond the narrow definition of "adverb"; like "ne",=20
"e ", "nur" and "jes" (when used as an emphasizer), it can also be=20
used as a determiner for a noun or pronoun, not just as a "modifier"=20
for verbs, adjectives and other adverbs ("Ankay mia patrino konsilis=20
min, ke mi ne faru tion..."). Almenay and apenay may fall into the=20
same category.
 
Anstatay is usually classed as a preposition, but I consider it (and=20
treat it) more as a coordinating conjunction, to be used in the same=20
way as "kiel" ("krom" falls into the same category): "Mi amis _in=20
anstatay lin" (I loved her, not him); "Mi amis _in anstatay li" (It=20
was I, not he, who loved her). A lot of other people are doing the=20
same these days.
 
I think kvazay also qualifies as a conjunction ("Li kondutis kvazay=20
mi estus krimulo").
 
Of the six remaining adverbs in -AY, I don't think it would hurt a=20
bit if their endings were changed to -E. Unfortunately, as far as I=20
know the only time the Academy considered permitting this was right=20
after the Ido crisis (1910, I think), and because of prevailing=20
sentiment it was rejected.
 
> there are some prepositions:  anta=B7   (before / in front of), ^cirka=B7
> (around), la=B7 (according to),
>=20
> and then we have two conjunctions:  a=B7 (or), malgra=B7 (in spite of).=
 =20
>=20
Malgray is, I believe, a preposition.
 
> But I know of two words that don't fit into these categories:
>=20
> "Adia=B7!" (goodbye) is an interjection, and "na=B7" (nine) is a numera=
l --
> treated differently in Esperanto than other parts of speech.
>=20
> I don't know of any reason for these "-a=B7" words.  I put up with them=
, but
> if I were designing my own planlingvo, they wouldn't have gotten their
> collective nose in the door.
>=20
Zamenhof, in his letter to Borovko, mentions the "neutral ending=20
-ay". He does not, there or elsewhere, go into any other detail.=20
"Ay", of course, is a different kettle of fish entirely, being=20
modelled on the Romance languages and not being itself an ending (or=20
having one).
 
> >Why does the correlatives table (which does not seem to exist
> >outside of E-o, other languages getting along well without such a
> >construction) stop where it does? =20
>=20
> Again, good questions!  2 of them, to be exact.  I'll disentangle:
>=20
> 1. Why have correlatives at all?  -- from your insert:
>=20
> >(which does not seem to exist outside of E-o, other languages getting=20
> >along well without such a construction)=20
>=20
> [Ken describes the nascent English table]
 
Such tables also exist (incompletely) in Greek and Russian, at least;=20
Waringhien gives them (in layout), and I think that at one time I=20
posted them here. I've also heard that Sanskrit has an even more=20
complete one.
 
> 2. Why does the correlatives table stop where it does? =20
>=20
> You have hit on my secret sorrow!  I would have much preferred for the
> correlative table to fit seamlessly into the overall part-of-speech end=
ing
> and affix pattern of the language.  And incidentally, we're not alone i=
n
> this thought, witness the people who've tried to add "alia" (=3D other)=
 to
> the correlative table over the years, or to use "-(i)es" with words oth=
er
> than correlatives.  However, these and other modifications cause other
> difficulties, which would require extensive redesign of the language.  =
In
> my opinion it's not worth it.  But for those currently designing a lang=
uage
> I have some suggestions!
>=20
Forms such as "alies" and "aliel" are fairly commonly used these=20
days, to the chagrin of the Academy and the more conservative=20
linguistic conservatives. The main argument against an "ali-" column=20
is that it would interfere, particularly in the forms "alia" and=20
"alie", with the already existing root "ali'". But the table meaning=20
of "alia" is already commonly used as a secondary meaning of the root=20
(I noticed it first in Engholm's "Infanoj en Torento", published in=20
the late thirties, and have remarked it a number of places since). A=20
couple of months ago, Ionel Onet gave me three books to review, one=20
by the Finn Sabira Staahlberg and two by the Russian Mikhail=20
Bron_tejn; I found the form "aliu" in use in all three. My own take=20
is that, ultimately, there will be an "ali-" column in the table, but=20
that it will take decades or more to be recognized by e.g. the=20
Academy (I would guess that within 25-50 years it will at least be=20
mentioned in many textbooks).
 
Forms like "kelkiuj" are fairly common, and, unlike "aliuj" (for=20
instance), can be justified as a simple and legal combination of the=20
root "kelk'" and the tabular column in "i-".
 
> >Why are there forms for motion toward but not motion from?
>=20
> Hmmm, I dunno!  The Ido solution is to have neither, to just use
> prepositions.  I guess the situation in Esperanto is asymmetric, but I
> think the "motion toward" crops up more often, so maybe Zamenhof though=
t it
> would be convenient to have.  I have a vague memory that someone who kn=
ew
> Latin once told me that there was some precedent there, but I don't
> remember what.
>=20
In Latin, the accusative is used with some prepositions of place=20
to show motion to or toward, where the ablative is used to show=20
simple location. (There's also something called a locative case, but=20
my teacher never went into any detail about that.)
 
Essentially, in Esperanto the -N ending is used to show the sufferer=20
of the action. Primarily, that's the direct object; but, with actions=20
that show motion, it's the goal of the motion. There are, of course,=20
some verbs that have both (e.g. "to send"), and there the direct=20
object takes priority; technically, it would be legal to say "li=20
donis la libron la knabon", but, in the absence of a strict=20
word-order rule, that could be confusing. (*) The rule here (not=20
mentioned in the canonical sixteen) is: when meaning requires both a=20
direct and indirect object, the direct object's -N takes priority.=20
 
Pretty obviously, _source_ of a movement doesn't fall into this=20
category, and Z. evidently didn't want to create a new ending just to=20
show this particular feature. (Even in English, "whence" has pretty=20
much fallen out of use. Of course, so has "whither", the Esperanto=20
"kien".)
 
---
 
(*) English has a strict word-order rule, which did not, for some=20
reason, ever get mentioned in my high-school English classes: a=20
prepositional-case (**) indirect object should always follow the=20
direct object, while a dative-case indirect object must always=20
precede the direct object. "He gave the book the boy" is impossible;=20
"He gave to the boy the book" at least sounds foreign and unwieldy.
 
(**) Morphological case distinctions in English -- except for=20
nominative/genitive, which also applies to nouns -- are restricted to=20
pronouns, of which a number have a separate=20
dative/accusative/prepositional case. There is, of course, a=20
syntactical distinction of dative and accusative for English nouns.
 
 
--Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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February 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 5
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