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AUXLANG  May 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG May 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Some Weak Points of Occidental Summarized

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 18 May 1999 17:29:27 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

"Robert J. Petry" wrote:
 
> "Robert J. Petry" wrote:
>
> > I thought it might be interesting to post a full article translated
> > from Occidental into English for the list.
> > This is a response to an article that was first published in "The
> > British Esperantist".
 
[kut]
 
>
> > Here is the second part: Enjoy!
> > ===================
>
> [kut]
 
About the pronunciation prof. C. found that the sounds F eu, D o", and y = F
'u', is very difficult for [the] English, but the sound of eu is found in the
English 'early', furthermore a diphthonged pronunciation would also be more
difficult for them, and in fact, this sound finds itself only in some known
words, [such] as Europa, neutral, eugenic, in words properly western it is
not found. Because 'y' finds itelf only in a series of principally Gree
scientific and technical words, it [y] is necessary for constructive reasons,
and international scientific aspects. Espo for ex. cannot make [the]
difference between chlorophyll and chlorophil! [KLOROFILO]
If, to whoever this pronunciation, aslo finding itself in English 'hymn', is
difficult, they may tranquilly pronounce 'i' without any damage, [and] will
always be understood. Is it true therefore one should eliminate the 'r'
because the "English almost totally don't pronounce it?
 
Truly astonishing is the conclusion about the accent rule. For [an] example
is cited:
incredibil,
visibil,
astronomie,
"in which the accent does not conform to English usage."
 
There [in England] one accents:
incre'dible,
vi'sible,
astro'nomy,
such as in no other language! That is a specific particularity of the English
language, that the accent almost always differs from the general custom. _To
postulate or to expect_ in Occ an accentuation following English is naive.
But, is it true therefore, the lauded Espo accentuation
regu'lo,
naci'o,
rebu'so,
ani'mo
etc are conformed to the English pronunciation or of whatever other language?
The "blamed" pronunciation [of Occ] finds itself in many romanic languages
(the 2 primary) and lastly in Russian, Polish, Bulgar and Estonian!
 
The double pronuciation of the 'c' is exaggeratted as difficult. I ask prof.
C. to show me a normal european person with elementary instruction who will
read a placard with announcements such as:
CONCERT,
CONTINENTAL,
PNEUMATIC, as
"tsonsert",
"tsontinental",
"pneumatits", etc!
Even in slavic or urgo-finnic lands! May [any]one show us one person not
knowing Esp who would read the Espo words:
CARO,
COLO,
JUNECO,
not as
"karo",
"kolo",
"juneko",
but as
"tsaro",
"tsolo",
"junetso", etc!
 
So strong is the accustomation, even by old esperantists, as to be visible by
the circumstances, that still today almost in every number of Espo-journals
one encounters many "c's" printed instead of "k".
 
The double consonants according to prof. C. are naturally "ridiculous
complication".
Now, 1) the double consonants are obligatory only there where they mark the
short pronunciation and difference, for ex. car and carre, foliette, etc.
2) the permission to use the double consanants, used in Latin and still in
many great european languages, is only a FACILITATION in usage in Occidental.
One is freed from the fear of possible errors. In Espo just the unaccustomed
obligative accusative always still produces constant errors, even in the
reviews and newspapers!
 
It is truly strange that people exist _who find the freedom more difficult
than enforced rules!_ The permitted writing "colision, raport" is not a
breaking of the principle of internationality, because [there] doesn't exist
a commonallity in this thing, for ex. the cited words are written in S.Cat.
and R and Estonian by single consonants. Prof. Collinson probably thinks that
everything found in ADF [as does ILa] is international! But if that were to
be true, then certainly Esperanto is _not an international_ language but
_extranational_!
 
The double forms of the pronouns following [the] opinion of prof. Collinson
causes "much unnecessary memorizing". [what about that need for a CHART of
correlatives?] I think that these 6 words are memorized in 10 minutes, even
by very inept individuals! Bust just this [same] division finds itself in all
languages of Europe.
 
Naturally again is cited the THREE infinitives _ar, er, ir_, which is either
a complete ignorance of the primary rules of Occ., because the _a, and e and
i_ pertain to the verb radical, or a conscious falsification of the facts.
[from my almost two year experience today, I believe it is both, and carried
on deliberately by some folks]. Occ has ONLY ONE CONJUGATION! With the same
judgment [as prof. C.] we would be able to say, that in Espo the infinitive
ends with ni, li, di, ri, pi, ki etc: turNI, ceLI, viDI, diRI, ikuPI, indiKI,
etc!
 
An greatest misunderstanding of Occ shows the assertion that the preterite in
Occ has the same form as the active participle! Thus:
AMAT = AMANT! [not!!!!!!]
 
The question about the difference from the conjunctive and optative in Occ is
a bit uncautious. In the criticism of the derivations again is repeated the
hundred times refuted assertion, that for the different suffixes is; ta',
ore, ess, a single suffix is sufficient for the idea of an abstract quality.
Now, maladie is not a quality, but a state; longore is not a quality TO BE
LONG, but a measure of HOW LONG the thing is (it can be very short).
 
But the differences in logic which our uncultured predecessors felt, seems
too difficult for today's man.
 
Are we idiots? Prof. C. includes the following sentence: strange, [there] is
no international differentiation in connection with the same radical (altess,
altore). [Oh?] NOW we have:
in English
highness, height,
F altesse, hauteur,
SP alteza, altura,
D Hoheit, Ho"he,
Sv ho"ghed, Hoide,
Hol hoogheid, hoogte,
R vyssotshestvo, vyshina,
Tch vyoost, vysina
etc.
_How many languages are necessary for Prof. C. [and certain other Espists,
and others] in order to qualify a thing "international"? --E. Wahl
 
Had fun, hope you did too.
 
Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~
 
P.S. Ken, I did another test today. One with a young male waiter at the
Congress hotel, and the other with one of the behind the counter folks at my
Post Office. Great success!!!! They both could read it. And, I had them read
it outloud and translate into English as they read. i.e. Read Occidental and
IMMEDIATELY translate into English. You Esperantists and others are pulling
my leg, or you deliberately aren't trying.;--))) The fellow at the hotel
wanted my phone number so we can get together to show him how to learn it. Oh
well, real life works, theory sounds good.

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