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CONLANG  June 1999, Week 1

CONLANG June 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Universal Translation Language

From:

"From Http://Members.Aol.Com/Lassailly/Tunuframe.Html" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:29:56 EDT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 01/06/99 06:56:51  , Charles a =E9crit :

>  > >  In my experiments it seems impossible to have part-of-speech termina=
l
>  > >  vowels and SVO order without eventually gravitating to adjective-nou=
n.
>  >=20
>  > it's because you get short of vowels so you have to root-root bon-
> fishoobedoo
>  > in the end. anyway i think PoS tags should be head like in svo pidgins.
> =20
>  Yeah, http://www.sil.org/silewp/1998/002/SILEWP1998-002.html

i meant "in my opinion", which is not jap or else's. pidgin is not God. no=20
auxlang will please 10 billion earthlings so keep your WO if it fits you.

> =20
>  > switching adj-noun means that you link inversion and attribution (like =
in
>  > Chinese and English). in the same time you make a hierarchy ranking
>  > attribution as secondary, derived word order and i feel it's not=20
accurate.
>  > maybe you can systematize children's language :
>  > house its door hurt john his head.
> =20
>  That's genitive-noun, which I like, and often leads to adjective-noun
>  by a process of "grammaticalization", if I got it right.
>
i think so. cf. Dutch "Jan z'n kop" and English "John's head".
=20
>  > dog ADJ it red TOP it nice =3D the red dog is nice
>  > friend my his sister she nice =3D my sister's friend is nice
>  > sister my friend she nice =3D (ditto)
>  > where integrative ADJ makes "it red" attributive like "his sister" is,=20
and
>  > resumptive TOP closes substuff.
>  > it seems strange, but that how attributive really works in children's=20
> heads :
>  > actor comes first, then attribute.
> =20
>  That works well with adjective-noun, where there is almost a feeling
>  of pre-limitation and post-attribution of both nouns and verbs.
>  Attempted example: "My red dog biting your sister is just playing."
>
dunno. maybe. just fits short sentences i guess.=20
=20
>  > this has nothing to do with verb-noun
>  > difference. either verb is noun's attribute or noun is verb's attribute
>  > because it's unaspectivized (that's my favourite rabitting-on subject)  =
:
>  > "gone the car" =3D "the car gone" =3D the car is gone (as my little cou=
sin=20
> says :
>  > "partie, la voiture !").
>  > that's why i think your "reversive" language is a good basis for childi=
sh
>  > auxlang.
> =20
>  Well, it has to be easy enough for me, a much tougher task.
> =20

i'm always amazed of english's lack of topicalisation. how do you manage tha=
t=20
?

>  > >  By using an inverse-transitive voice or doing French-like compoundin=
g,
>  > >  root+preposition+root as in salle-a-manger, it could work well maybe=
.
>  > >
>  > that's basically what i did with "kases" (remember ? ;-)
>  > but you may try with real prepositions made from real verbs.
> =20
>  I may abandon compounds as unneeded anyway. I like the Tok Pisin
>  "haus xxx" construction better than what I was thinking about earlier,
>  letting little prepositions get in the middle of compounds.

these "prepositions" are usually reminiscent of either first or second=20
component of the compound as either item or function.

>  As for cases/prepositions, I do like using a real verb instead of a
>  closed-class particle e.g. "... concerning xxx" vs. "... about xxx".
>  And it wouldn't be too horrible to try a more consistent VO style,
>  adjs follow nouns, adverbs follow verbs, etc.

you can manage same with OV, N-Adj, Adv-V, etc. and convert japs to your=20
auxlang. don't forget a "suspensive" relief verb form though.

 The main point for me
>  is whether there can be a super-productive set of -r- type infixes:
> =20
>  > >  > let's say :
>  > >  > i : verb
>  > >  > o : substantive
>  > >  > a : adj =3D attributive to a substantive
>  > >  > e : adv =3D attributive to a verb
>  > >  > -r- : nomen agentis
>  > >  > -k- : noun of action
>  > >  > -s- : genitive
>  > >  > -t- : and (resumptive)
>  > >  >
>  > >  > bone fishi =3D to fish well
>  > >  > bona fishi-r-o =3D the good fisher
>  > >
>  > >  Hey, I may have to steal this -r- and -k-, at least;
>  > >  what would be the most productive set of these?
> =20
>  > mapping
>  > like indonesian : around 10. mapping like i would ("kases") : around 50 =
(
> all
>  > most frequent roles in their main aspects used in derived words). if yo=
u=20
> are
>  > willing to use long words and avoid ditransitives by means of serial=20
verbs=20
> :
>  > you need 4.
> =20
>  How?! I can see the 50, what are the 4 and the 10? Do you mean "case role=
s"
>  as in http://www.uoregon.edu/~delancey/papers/bls91.html ??
>
come on, make it simple :
(1) i give sthg > (2) sthg is-given by me
(3) fact-of-giving sthg > (4) fact-of-being given

(1) i receive sthg > (2) sthg is-received by me
(3) fact-of-... > (4) fact-of...

now if your verbs don't refer to words' function or result, then you may add =
:
(5) i use-function of sthg > (6) sthg's function is-used by
(7) sthg's function aims at sthg > (8) sthg is aimed at by sthg's function
(9) to make sthg > (10) to be made by
(11) to apply on > (11) to be applied sthg
etc.

wait a minute ! i'm describing you Tunu, so i'd better stop here. conlanging=20
is not auxlanging.
 =20
>  > funny that Marcos and you both like root+root+suffix pattern.
> =20
>  The lexical information naturally comes out faster than the grammatical,
>  sorted by topicality. Then the POS vowel is held as long as necessary
>  until the next word is ready, much prettier than "... uh ...".
>
you may be right. i didn't think of "slow" grammatical utterance. i'll have=20
to ponder over it.

Mathias =20

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April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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