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CONLANG  June 1999, Week 2

CONLANG June 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: a traditional Nattiki fable

From:

Sally Caves <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:44:10 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (252 lines)

Nik Taylor wrote:
>
> Looks as tho this didn't get much response, in fact, no replies. I
> rediscovered it while cleaning out my mailbox.

I saw it, too, but your translation has inspired me to try my hand
at it. The poor pig, such a maligned creature. By the way, this
was Matt Pearson's class constructed conlang. So this should be
very interesting. Here's the Teonaht; Nattiki at the end, with
a few questions I have.

LI KORMA UOLI TORYO
The Pig and the Oaktree

KORMA-LI NOLMLO PERIM
Pig-indef.art. HAB.pst. he exist
A pig used he (to) exist
"There was a pig"

PONDRE-NOLM HAI HSOB TORYO VOLWEN;
stand-pst.HAB rel. under oak old
stood who under oak old
"who stood under an old oaktree;"

SEND POTO IL NYKKONO NOLMLO ENNYVE.
and all the acorns HAB-pst.he eat
"and he used to eat all the acorns."

ANEB POTO IL NYKKONO NRINOLM TALO DIHHAIN,
adv. all def.obj.art. acorns find.pst.HAB can.pst.he of which
After all the acorns find could he of which
"After he ate all the acorns that he could find,"

NOLMLO O~ SELYB EDDIRME.
pst.HAB.he "of" full sleep.
did he used to of full sleep.
"he slept fully."

MA TYVOR DER ELAI O~ TEMBRAHT DWEKAMA
but hunger/SUBJ him/OBJ pst.it/SUBJ of timely awake-make
but hunger him did it timelily awaken
"but hunger woke him up after a time," [we switch to simple past
                                         instead of habitual past]

SEND VRODAN ILID ETON ELO MIP VONA.
Conj. roots/OBJ gen.obj.art. tree pst.he INCEP. dig.
And roots of the tree did he start to dig.
"and he started to dig up the roots of the tree."

`VERA DEF!' EDDER ELO EBRA LE TAH
NEG. imp.do to-him pst.he say the songbird
Not do! to him did he say the songbird.
"Don't do [that]!" said the songbird to him"

MASSELHAI AR FYRL CELIL TORYO,
sit.pst.who on branch in the/OBJ oaktree,
sat who on etc.
"that sat on a branch in the oaktree,"

UANNER TY IL VRODAN FY TAFWYR
causal conj obj.art. roots/OBJ you/SUB hurt
For if the roots you hurt
"for if you hurt the roots,"

TA KABUO LI TORYO
causal dies the oaktree
"then the oaktree will die."

TY LI TORYO ESLO KABUO TA DETYNDDESRY VERA
conj. subj. fut.he dies CAUS. fut.chatter-teeth I not
If the oaktree he will die then will chatter I with my teeth not
"If the oaktree dies, I won't worry,"

LI KORMA ELO EBRA.
The pig did he say.
"said the pig."

MIMIM TONON TALLOPRY BROTEN NRINA!
collect. acorns mod.fut.HAB.I adv. find.
Some acorns will be able I always find.
"I can always find some acorns."

O TYSTRA LE TORYO VOLWEN ELO JANE:
Of sudden the oaktree old did he speak:
"Suddenly the old oaktree spoke:"

HA HKORMEN, DOVNAKA FY!
Voc. pig fool/COMP you!
Oh pig, fool you!
"Pig, you're a fool."

FYL EPAN KE HAIN UINSE NERIK
poss. eyes see rel. adv. mud
your eyes see which only mud
"Your eyes, which only see the mud,"

TY TALDWAV WEM UOPAKE TA WEMFY PRE
If can they might up see then might you know
"if they could look up then you might know"

RENDDARUOM LI NIKONOWET AROL MAL BRINENYVOMFY HAIN
grow-HAB acorns-DIM. on-me now over-eat HAB which
grow the little acorns on me now over-eat you which
"that little acorns are growing on me that you gorge yourself on"

O NWETIS GORMAIHT!
of much/many gluttonous
"so very gluttonously!"

TO HSENNAL EV FYL VYGGEO,
for reason by your blindness
"Because of your blindness,"

COMMANCO TO MEHUENREM FY MAL HSOVDEN!
OBJ adj. phrase you/SUBJ adv. under-do
feast for arriving you now underdo.
"you are destroying a future feast!"

Looking at Matt's students' rendition below, where
the pig is telling the bird that he "won't worry if the
tree dies," I notice that the simple future seems
to be used here. "If the tree will die, my teeth
won't chatter," I've translated in the Teonaht above,
because Teonaht does the same thing with simple conditionals.
T. doesn't have a subjunctive, and a very poorly worked
out conditional. I notice that Nattiki later has a
word for "could," as in "if your eyes could see..."
in _tetelo_. Is this different in construction from
_shu wisha_ "will worry" and _shu maka_ "will die"
in the sentence with the simple future? Teonaht has no such
conditional construction "could." It has to resort
to a modal, _wem_, meaning "perhaps" or "might" to
express a stronger conditional than that with the
simple future. You also have _na bish_, "you would."
How did you derive these and not extend the sense to the
first sentence? "If the tree were to die, I would
not worry." A linguistic conundrum for me: how is
this semantically different from "If the tree dies,
I won't worry"? Is it just a matter of using the
subjunctive or the conditional in one case and not
in the other, or is the Nattiki sentence a relex of
English in this one instance? (Because it is still
a language in formation?) Teonaht gets itself
into knots over this type of thing.

Sally Caves
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/verbs.html
============================================
The Nattiki version:

>
> > KUNUG DA SISIILA
> >
> > Odee kunug baakatem otoose tus chonaop sisiilaop da
> > olholho bapasisiilaop. Bado olholho zuzop bapasisiilaop
> > sashaaop opila kada, omiibod limaa. Ep ochaguweo booa
> > aooweotem, da omiba diche katlhosop.
> >
> > "Mi nalhee dogop!" ozii ka lapop kunugop wudugitem
> > baakatem oluduu lhi hanchaop bap sisiilaop. "Zigaa
> > tat nashudiza katlhosop, shumaka lhostem."
> >
> > "Mi ishuwisha tat shumaka lhostem," ozii kunugtem.
> > "Ishupila kada lam bapasisiilaop be lhiichubop."
> >
> > Oduu atapa chonatem sisiilatem. "Men nadee, kunug!
> > Tat tetelo kima hanchalaop lhononitem sashaatem heo
> > nebee udifaop, nabish baafa kan uuji lhila uumunmutem
> > gibuktem sashaaop nalholho ukuuli. Zigaa nabobluka
> > aa, nabobasfoo ujoshop waafimonoop!"
> >
> > MORPHEME-BY-MORPHEME GLOSS
> >
> > KUNUG DA SISIILA
> > pig and oak.tree
> >
> > O-dee kunug baaka-tem o-toose tus chona-op
> > Pst-is pig who-Nom Pst-stand under old-Obj
> >
> > sisiila-op da o-lholho bapasisiila-op.
> > oak.tree-Obj and Pst-eat acorn-Obj
> >
> > (N.B.: "bapa-sisiila" = "oak.tree-fruit")
> >
> > Bado o-lholho zuz-op bapasisiila-op sashaa-op
> > after Pst-eat all-Obj acorn-Obj what-Obj
> >
> > o-pila kada, o-miibod limaa.
> > Pst-able.to find Pst-sleep.soundly satisfied
> >
> > Ep o-chagu-weo booa aoo-weo-tem,
> > but Pst-awaken-him after.a.while hunger-his-Nom
> >
> > da o-miba diche katlhos-op.
> > and Pst-begin poke/prod tree.roots-Obj
> >
> > "Mi na-lhee dog-op!" o-zii ka lap-op
> > not you-do that-Obj Pst-say to that-Obj
> >
> > kunug-op wudugi-tem baaka-tem o-luduu lhi
> > pig-Obj bird-Nom who-Nom Pst-sit on
> >
> > hancha-op bap sisiila-op.
> > branch-Obj in oak.tree-Obj
> >
> > "Zigaa tat na-shu-diza katlhos-op,
> > because if you-Fut-damage roots-Obj
> >
> > shu-maka lhos-tem."
> > Fut-die tree-Nom
> >
> > "Mi i-shu-wisha tat shu-maka lhos-tem,"
> > not I-Fut-worry if Fut-die tree-Nom
> >
> > o-zii kunug-tem. "I-shu-pila kada
> > Pst-say pig-Nom I-Fut-able.to find
> >
> > lam bapasisiila-op be lhiichub-op."
> > always acorn-Obj for food-Obj
> >
> > O-duu atapa chona-tem sisiila-tem.
> > Pst-speak all.at.once old-Nom oak.tree-Nom
> >
> > "Men na-dee, kunug!
> > stupid you-are pig
> >
> > Tat tetelo kima hancha-la-op lhon-oni-tem
> > if they-could see branch-my-Obj eye-your-Nom
> >
> > sashaa-tem heo nebee udifa-op, na-bish
> > what-Nom only look.at dirt-Obj you-would
> >
> > baafa kan uuji lhi-la uumunmu-tem gibuk-tem
> > know that grow on-me lovely-Nom morsel-Nom
> >
> > sashaa-op na-lholho ukuuli.
> > what-Obj you-eat greedily
> >
> > Zigaa na-bob-luka aa, na-bob-asfoo
> > because you-Prog-act blindly you-Prog-destroy
> >
> > ujosh-op waafimono-op!"
> > future-Obj feast-Obj
>
> --
> Happy that Nation, - fortunate that age, whose history is not diverting
> -- Benjamin Franklin
> http://members.tripod.com/~Nik_Taylor/X-Files/
> http://members.tripod.com/~Nik_Taylor/Books.html
> ICQ #: 18656696
> AIM screen-name: NikTailor

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September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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