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CONLANG  June 1999, Week 2

CONLANG June 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: The deliberate redundancy; was: Idioms

From:

dunn patrick w <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:17:13 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Sally Caves wrote:

> Redundancies below, after a short discussion of the reviled
> preposition! <G>
>
> dunn patrick w wrote:
> >
> > Sally, in discussing Teonaht (incidently, I love that conlang! I actually
> > read bits of it to someone at work once and said, "isn't that beautiful?"
> > He nodded slowly and backed away) mentioned some idioms, particularly the
> > quirky use of prepositions.
>
> Hey thanks! Did you also read him bits of your own conlang? ;-)
>
> The quirky use of prepositions is not a popular topic... I've gotten no
> response to it or suggestions, so this is welcome!
>
> > Hatasoe is similar. For instance, the preposition pazo, meaning "for", is
> > used to mark indirect objects. "Duo", "upon", is used with the verbs "to
> > walk," "to go" and "to drive" even if it's inside a structure. And felan,
> > "with", is often sued to indicate possession, particularly when an animate
> > noun owns another animate noun. "The man's brother" therefore could be
> > "Pato sha" but is usually "Pato felan sho."
>
> Well this is quite interesting. How do you use pazo with walk? I'm not
> sure I understand your example above because you don't give long enough
> sentences with each word glossed. For instance, in Pato felan sho, what
> does "sho" mean and what does "sha"? How is "duo" inside a structure?

Let me give some examples.

pazo to introduce the IO:

ea olosua pazo pato sue.
I I.it.sing for brother song.
I sing a song to the brother.

ea olohomaka pazo apueo gaze.
I I.it.give for god tea.
I give tea to the god.

duo with pua, to walk:

ea opua duo talo.
I I.walk upon island.
I walk about the island.

ea opua duo tete.
I I.walk upon house.
I walk through the house.
I walk in the house.

The use of felan to show possession:

Tete sha.
House man(const.)
The man's house.

Pato felan sho.
Brother with man.
The man's brother.

> Another thing that T. ought to do if it is an analytic language with
> lots
> of prepositions is make sure that there are some verbs that we regard as
> intransitive that they see transitively and vice versa. It's so hard to
> fight the "relex" problem (a "coding" for your own native language) but
> you have to constantly be aware of it. "Eat the food." Transitive
> "eat"
> in both Teonaht and English. "Give to the poor." Intransitive "give"
> in both Teonaht and English. "Listen to the music." AHA!
> Intransitive
> "listen" in English but transitive in Teonaht. Yay!
>
> But what about expressions that would make "eat" intransitive" and
> "give" transitive"? Grace the poor with your donation. Bite at your
> food.

This is a good point. I'll have to dig through Hatasoe and make sure I'm
not relexing.

> the wet fish
> the feathered bird
> the hard stone
> the wet rain
> the legless snake
> the black crow
>
> Its six miles as the black crow flies.
> He's out fishing for the wet fish.
> He doesn't have brains enough to come out of the wet rain.
> He's caught between a hard rock and a hard place (!!! G)
>
> These modifiers would be meaningless insofar as determining a wet fish
> from
> a dry fish (something on your plate maybe?), and would be incorporated
> in the word. These would become poetic words, or rhetorically
> embellished
> words. I can see, now, how classifiers arose in some of the Asian
> languages.
> I wonder if it wasn't just this kind of process: the flat plate, the
> long pencil, the round egg.

Being a poet, I'm immediately struck by the possibility of meter this
opens up. If I could just stick "wet" before "fish" and not be derided as
redundant, it'd open up possibilities of a strict metrical poetic system,
like Greek. It effectively gives you two words, with different meters,
for the same idea.

fish wet fish
/ / /
bird fea-thered bird
/ / _ /
snake leg-less snake
/ / _ /

English also has this "two words for one" ability, but only because we
absorbed -- or, as I like to put it, met with a crash of sparks and badly
pronounced vowels -- Norman French. Hence, we have:

feather plume
/ _ /
snake ser-pent
/ / _

Sorry, that swas something of a digression, unless you're working on a
poetic system for your language. Something I've not yet begun; it's easy
to decide that you want, say, anapestic tetrameter to be the natural foot,
but much harder to impliment.

--Patrick

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