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AUXLANG  June 1999, Week 3

AUXLANG June 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Fwd: Re: isolating system project

From:

Robin Turner <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:50:43 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (215 lines)

Charles wrote:
 
> How do you handle species names, and other such large semantic fields?
> I may have missed that feature, not having read all of John's book.
>
 
If by species, you mean plant and animal species, if it's common, make up=
 a lujvo
(compound word), if not use a fu'ivla (loan word) - the same goes for any=
 large and
specialised area.  A fu'ivla contains a prefix indicating the broad scope=
 of the word,
so people who haven't come across it before can still have a stab at the =
meaning.
 
>
> About the 3-letter abbreviations of gismu, the combining forms;
> why is there not *one* standard form for each? Are they needed at all?
>
 
I don't think there can be one form (e.g. "take the first three letters o=
f the gismu")
as we would end up with a lot of gismu having the same combining form.  Y=
es, they are
necessary for forming lujvo - otherwose the words would just get too long.
 
>
> > Remember that 90% of the "grammar" is in the lexicon, and hence optio=
nal.  For
> > example, Lojban has an "inchoative aspect", which sounds pretty intim=
idating, but
> > it just consists of the word {pu'o}.  So all you need to know is that=
 {pu'o}
> > means "about to" or "on the verge of".  That's the nice thing about i=
solating
> > languages - once you've learnt the basic syntax, the rest of the "gra=
mmar" is
> > really vocabulary.
>
> Good answer in this case; but is English good with so many idiomatic ve=
rbs?
 
The problem with English is that it is so metaphorical.  I think this is =
not an
inevitable consequence of an isolating language (though I could be wrong)=
 but of having
an isolating language which presses too many lexical words into grammatic=
al use.
Synthetic languages tend not to have this problem, because even if affixe=
s derive from
lexical words, their morphology has changed - very few Turks realise that=
 the
progressive aspect suffix -yor- comes from the old Turkish root yoru- , m=
eaning "walk"
(modern Turkish y=FCr=FC-).
 
Lojban atempts to get round the problem by having a large number of cmavo=
 (structural
words) which are derived from gismu (root words) but have a different for=
m, so you know
you're talking grammar, not content.  For example, the cmavo for the pres=
ent tense,
{ca} comes from {cabna}, meaning "now".
 
>
> There should be a reasonable limit to the number of clever aspects/etc.
> Somewhere I heard that 100 separate grammatical words/affixes
> is the maximum in natlangs (not counting irregular forms, I guess).
>
 
I think this is less of a problem in an isolating language, especially wh=
en a large
proportion of grammatical words are derived from lexical words.  At least=
 with Lojban,
only knowing a few grammatical words won't make your sentences wrong, jus=
t less
detailed (I certainly don't know all the cmavo, and I don't intend to lea=
rn them all in
the near future).
 
>
> > Just out of curiosity, which features do you find "strange"?
>
> Well, it was intended/designed as a sort of experiment,
> not as an IAL, so criticizing Lojban as follows is not fair.
> And I'm too lazy to go into enough detail below. All told,
> there has been a lot of innovative, creative work on it
> since 1978, when I first read about Loglan and dismissed it,
> quite unimpressed. But here goes anyway:
>
> Written punctuation is awkward at best.
>
 
Lojban has no punctuation as such - some Latin punctuation is used for ph=
onological
purposes e.g. a full stop is a pause.
 
>
> The arbitrary argument structures are inferior to natlang case.
>
 
Argument structures are not all that arbitrary - they usually follow a no=
minative -
accusative - dative - ablative pattern where relevant.  I must admit I wa=
s very
sceptical about place structure when I first encountered Lojban, but now =
I find it
fairly natural. Natlang case can also be arbitrary - there's no real reas=
on why in
Turkish "hit" takes the dative but "beat" takes the accusative, or why "b=
e angry" takes
the dative but "be afraid" takes the ablative.
 
>
> The gismu list really seems too impoverished.
 
That's why we have lujvo.
 
> It looks difficult/awkward to drop the first argument.
> VSO would work better, or always require "cu" to mark the verb.
>
 
I've never experienced a problem with this - it's just like any pro-drop =
language.
 
>
> Attitudinals (disjuncts) as a separate morphological class seem wrong.
>
 
Actually, I find this one of the most attractive and practical features o=
f the language
- I even throw attitudinals into my English postings.  But there's no rul=
e that says
you have to use attitudinals for affect or judgement - it's just more con=
cise, and
somtimes more precise.
 
>
> In general, too much is grammaticalized to call it isolating.
> Should add list of such features here ...
>
 
I find very little to be grammaticalised.  by this count, Chinese wouldn'=
t be isolating
either.
 
>
> Precision is advertised, but every compound is imprecise
> and yet required by having so few roots (gismu).
>
 
As I said, this is why we have lujvo.  If I say {kurji mikce} it is ambig=
uous, since it
just means "taking-care-of-kind-of medic".  But the lujvo {kurmikce} is p=
recise - it
means "nurse" (or to be more accurate, it will do if it gets into the Loj=
ban
disctionary - this is one I made up myself).
 
>
> Logic is advertised, but I don't see that logical expressions
> differ from plain English. Need a good example here ...
 
English doesn't distinguish between IF and IFF, or between OR and XOR - L=
ojban does.
Lojban is also more precise about causation, distinguishing between physi=
cal causation,
motivation, justification and logical implication.
 
>
> It is possible that the ugliness of the orthography
> is interfering with my understanding of chapter 14.
>
 
Well, that's a matter of taste.  I'm happy with Lojban orthography becaus=
e (i.e. (mu'i}
- with motivation!) I don't like capitals much, but I understand that som=
e people may
not like it.   There is also an Elvish alphabet for Lojban, but I don't t=
hink it's been
used much.  Personally, I'd like to see a specific Lojban alphabet develo=
p, but that's
way in the future, and probably won't happen while most people are still =
using ASCII.
 
>
> There are many good features that are not really integrated.
> The disambiguation operators for "pretty little girl school"
> seem well-motivated but non-intuitive. Should detail this ...
>
 
I don't use them much, since I'm not into really complex tanru.  But I do=
 make tanru
with logical operators e.g.
 
gleki je prami =3D be-happy-and-love
 
as opposed to
 
gleki prami =3D happy-type-of-love
 
>
> The impression is that it would take 6 months to understand
> grammar, and only one month for vocabulary. This is too weird.
 
I found the opposite!  But then it depends on what you count as grammar a=
nd what as
vocabulary.  I think once you've learnt the basic bridi (predicate) struc=
ture, place
conversion and forking the bridi with {gi}, you have all you need syntaxw=
ise.  I don't
bother with the really flashy stuff like termsets and bridi-tails.
 
co'o mi'i robin.

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December 2000, Week 5
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