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CONLANG  August 1999, Week 3

CONLANG August 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: going without "without"

From:

Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:56:55 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

JOEL MATTHEW PEARSON wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Irina Rempt-Drijfhout wrote:
>
> > > (Note that the instrumental is also used to indicate concepts like
> > > "through", and "via".  In general, it is used to indicate objects
> > > and locations which act as intermediaries between the actor and
> > > the goal/patient in an action.  E.g., the knife acts as an
> > > intermediary between John and the bread by actually performing
> > > the act of cutting, as a result of John's manipulating it.)
> > > The comitative case (marked by the suffix "-a" or "-ia" on the
> > > noun) is used to indicate a participant who is accompanying
> > > another participant in an action, or an instrument which is
> > > aiding in the performance of an action.  For example:
> > >
> > >   Ma    puniei            pule        inak    Tsiona
> > >   I.Erg travelled-the.Dat village-Dat the.Com John-Com
> > >   "I travelled to the village with John"
> > >
> > >   Na      luiha     eta  ypena
> > >   the.Erg old.woman walk stick-Com
> > >   "The old woman walks with a stick"
> >
> > It's clear enough up to the example with John, but why does the old
> > woman walking with a stick use the comitative and not the
> > instrumental? Isn't the stick acting as an intermediary between the
> > woman and her walking? I admit that it's not the stick that does the
> > actual walking, but she's using it as a tool, not only for company.
>
> You put your finger on the key point when you mention that the
> stick isn't walking:  That's what the distinction is based on.
>
> The rule is as follows:  If the instrument actually performs the
> action denoted by the verb, then you use the instrumental.  If
> the instrument merely facilitates the performance of the action,
> then you use the comitative.  For instance, "John cut the meat
> with the fork" entails "The fork cut the meat", so "fork" would
> appear in the instrumental.  On the other hand, "John ate the
> meat with the fork" does NOT entail "The fork ate the meat", so
> "fork" would appear in the comitative.  You can think of the
> difference as being one of 'degree of agency'.  In "John cut
> the meat with the fork", John and the fork are in some sense
> 'co-agents' in the act of cutting.  John is the one who's in
> control of the event, but the fork can nevertheless be viewed
> as the actual 'doer' of the action.  In "John ate the meat with
> the fork", however, the fork is playing a more peripheral role.
> John is the only participant that actually 'does' any eating;
> the fork merely helps out (a supporting player, if you like).
>
> Of course, there are borderline cases:  Does "John opened the
> door with the key" entail "The key opened the door"?  Depends on
> what sense of "open" you have in mind.  I think in this case you
> could use either the instrumental or the comitative, but with
> slightly different senses.  Suppose that John unlocks the door
> with the key, puts it in his pocket, and then pushes the door
> open.  In that case I would use the comitative, since the key
> is merely facilitating the opening of the door.  However, suppose
> that John turns the key in the lock and the door immediately
> swings open.  In that case I might use the instrumental instead,
> since here there is a more direct cause-and-effect relationship
> between the action of the key and the opening of the door.
>

        I see your point. In France, my key serves only to unlock the door, and
I use the handle to open it then. So the key would be here in the
comitative case. But here in Eindhoven, I must use my key to open the
house door, because there is no handle on this door. So to open it, I
must turn the key as much as possible, not only to unlock it but also to
open it. There the key is in the instrumental case. What a fine
distinction! I like it!

>
> Matt

--
        Christophe Grandsire

        Philips Research Laboratories --  Building WB 145
        Prof. Holstlaan 4
        5656 AA Eindhoven
        The Netherlands

        Phone:  +31-40-27-45006
        E-mail: [log in to unmask]

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