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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  August 1999, Week 3

CONLANG August 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: going without "without"

From:

Steg Belsky <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:10:48 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:09:16 +0200 Irina Rempt-Drijfhout
<[log in to unmask]> responded to:
>> How do
>> people express "without" in their conlangs?

In Rokbeigalmki, both "without" and "with" are unrelated
prespositions/caseprefixes:
with / using  =  ya'
with / next to  =  sa'
without  =  ja'

_ya'_ is also used for the actor in a passive sentence:

yagul-a uzu-manoi-ad    ya'beijabal
fish-the        it|PAST-eat-PASSIVE     by'bear

"the fish was eaten by a bear".


"I'm going to that house with or without you"

= _azazii-mwe wa'waju-a dhu-a sa'esh au ja'esh_

...sa'esh               au      ja'esh
...with'you             or      without'you


Although, there's no negative equivalent to _ya'_...

"You went sailing without a boat?"

= _ha'ezu-zail ja'yaur ezihd?_

ha'ezu-zail     ja'yaur         ezihd
Q'you|PAST-sail without'using   boat

_ja'yaur_ is a compound (therefore disconnected) preposition.


The noun forms of these prepositions are:

yaur = a use
saur = a side
jaur = a lack


Hmm...in natlangs, Hebrew also has unrelated "with" and "without".
with / using  =  /b@/-
together with  =  /3im/
without  =  /b@li:/

However, when /3im/ is declined for person it turns into a form of /?eT/,
the object marker.

In Biblical Hebrew, /?eT/ meant both the known-direct-object marker and
"with", but it *declines* differently depending on the meaning.

For "object marker", the suffixes are added to the form /?o:T/.
For "with", the suffixes are added to the form /?it/.

Also, /b@li:/ turns into /bil3a;D/-, with [a;] meaning a _hhattaf
patahh_, "ultrashort"(?) [a] replacing a shva.

/bil3a;D/- comes from /bil3a;Dej/, which seems to be an "old-style"
preposition with that pattern:

/bil3a;Dej/
/3a;lej/  >>  /3al/
/?E;lej/  >>  /?El/

/3im/ can be declined as itself, though, as either the form /3imm/- or
/3immOD/-.


-Stephen (Steg)
 "hhalomot zeh b'emet"

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