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AUXLANG Home

AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

IALA

From:

"Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:50:36 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (206 lines)

At 12:02 AM 9/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From:    Charles <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Gode (1) (Re: common vocabulary)
 
> > Did he trash everyone else's goals at IALA?
>
>IALA was the Morrises, not Gode. Gode was nobody.
 
Whereas my impression was that Morris was the funding source, and that Gode
and Martinet were the "scientists".
 
> > Morris was much farther from Martinet and Gode than they
> > were from each other. She was the odd person out.
>
>It looks to me as if IALA degenerated into disgruntled
>employees who did not do what they were paid to do.
 
People who hire scientists to do research should not have preconceived
restrictions on what the results should be.
 
>IALA started out as something useful and hopeful, drawing
>from such men as Peano, Jesperson, Sapir, de Wahl.
>
> > Basically, Gode's language was a only stone's throw from Martinet's.
>
>Who were they? Did either accomplish anything in linguistics
>(or anything else) comparable to those mentioned above?
 
I believe Martinet at the very least has a significant "name" in
linguistics apart from IALA.  Not sure about Gode.
 
> > He moved from the highly Latinate prototypism of Model N
> > to the modernised prototype Model P. The final product was intermediate
> > between Model P and Martinet's preference, Model M (though closer
> > to P).
>
>These "models" were transparent pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo.
>No real science remained in IA de IALA once Gode became God.
>(I will try to address that better elsewhere.)
 
Assuming that "Gode became God", when did this happen relative to the start
of IALA.  1925 to 1951 is a long time.  Helen Eaton's list was dated 1938,
and was "science" in the descriptive sense most common to linguistics of
that time.
 
> > So the idea that Gode hijacked IALA as a vehicle for his own
> > peculiar ideas strikes me as polemical. Yes, he had ideas, and
> > he fought for them, but he also compromised, and they were
> > in any case in the main line of IALA's research at the time.
>
>This is quite silly, you know; you simply redefined IALA to be Gode
>rather than Morris, but in any case it had become just a few little people
>rather than a true organization as originally it was intended to be,
>and as it was seen until WW II. Yes, it was obviously "hijacked",
>after it had nearly run out of steam
 
It sounds like you are dating this "takeover" to during or after WW II.  It
seems likely that this minor conflict had a less than minor effect on
international efforts of the time.  After all, one could claim that the
League of Nations which had run out of steam was "hijacked" by the US and
Britain and turned into the United Nations.  It wouldn't be correct, but it
is a surface reading of history that I am sure many have.
 
If Morris objected too strongly to what Gode was doing, would not her
support have disappeared?
 
> > But as far as I know, IALA decided to create its own language in 1934,
> > long before work began on the Dictionary.  The idea that Gode steered IALA
> > from pure interlinguistic research to language design must have started
> > as someone's fantasy. After all, Alice Morris herself was working on
> > a model for the language.
>
>I think we need some documentation on this part of the history.
>But at the point that IALA gave up research, and started conlanging,
>it perforce lost all credibility.
 
Only among those who had a vested interest in a status quo
language.  Remember that conlanging as a solution to conflict was still the
default tendency.
 
> > Reading the intro to Interlingua Grammar, it seems like they were pursuing
> > both goals at once   IAL "ecumenism" and their own language   a position
> > not unlike your own, as a matter of fact.
>
>My opinions change over time, as I learn more.
>
>About 5 months ago, I was thinking, let's get some of the
>languages to enter a dialog ... etc blah blah ... and they
>will converge, keeping the best and sifting out the worst.
 
They might, but language evolution is a generational thing, not a  5 year
treaty thing.  Give it 300 years without internecine wars and Interlingua
and Esperanto might converge enough that ecumenical merger would be practical.
 
> > "There can be no practical auxiliary language in modern times which
> does not make use in one way of another of the existing international
> vocabulary. This implies that the _Interlingua-English Dictionary_ -
> which represents a collection of the international vocabulary - may be
> expected to prove useful
>
>No, it implies that the dictionary is totally *superfluous*.
 
Only if everyone knows the supposed international vocabulary distinct from
their own language.  Personally, I think the concept that there is an
international vocabulary is useful ONLY to those who have studied a second
European language and OBSERVED what kinds of words are "international".
 
> > "the result will be a welcome _rapprochement_ of the several systems
>
>No, the result was intended as yet-another-new-project,
>which rejected all preceding ones without learning from them.
 
I am not a proponent of any of the Euroclones, but I think this statement
is both biased and insulting.  Interlingua learned from preceding efforts -
they just did not learn what you wanted them to learn.
 
> > Some Interlinguists have seen the hand of Hugh E. Blair behind this,
> but it seems to fit the views Gode expressed in the International
> Language Review, a sort of 1950s Auxlang that Floyd Hardin edited in
> collaboration with Gode and Mario Pei.
>
>Interesting! I never heard of it before.
 
ILR was the closest thing to an unbiased forum on auxlangs that ever
existed.  You should definitely look for copies.
 
> > Maybe we should debate the question of why IAL ecumenism has never made
> progress.
>
>That's a black/white all/nothing statement; and mistaken.
 
I don't think so.  I think that acrimony between proponents of the major
Euroclones is as high if not higher than was true historically.  I think
that the Internet is increasing that acrimony by bringing back supposedly
dead contenders (few people 10 years ago would have presumed that any other
languages besides Interlingua and Esperanto among Euroclones were other
than dead).
 
The main hope is that under the surface feuding, the proliferation of
net-based info on the various languages is possible bringing about an
underlying ecumenism among those who were NOT previously wedded to one
language.  You and Petry are the only ones I can think of on Auxlang who
have declared for one language from a prior ecumenical or skeptical
position.  Meanwhile, the neutrals are clearly around, and some like Don
Harlow who I recall as being almost as stridently for Esperanto as Petry is
for Occidental, when I first read his stuff 10 years ago, have decidedly
toned down the rhetoric and acknowledged contrary points of view (the first
step to ecumenism).
 
>The best thing that could happen right now, would be for all
>the naturalistic (true) euro-auxlangs to support the common
>"international language" and *especially* their own dialects of it.
>People will look upon squabbling as they do the religious wars
>of the past, and conclude: "A plague on both your houses!"
 
Agreed.  But the squabbling is more fun for a lot of people.  I think a lot
of Auxlangers are more interested in the *concept* of an auxlang than in
the pragmatics of actually mastering any of them.  I am reminded for
example of Bruce Gilson as a strident squabbler who never seemed to learn
any auxlang well enough to write in it.
 
> > "From the point of view of Interlingua, Mother's death was
> > beneficial, because otherwise Interlingua might never have
> > been finished.
>
>So what? Who needed another new dialect?
 
Interlingua was sold as exactly that, anew and easier to learn dialect of
"European".  I remember back in the 60s and early 70s that it was "the
international auxiliary language of science" (this was before I had even
heard of Esperanto).
 
> > I sometimes think Gode overdid his search for non-arbitrary
> > design methods,
>
>The language is/was already there. What he did was
>to wrap his notions with a fraudulent claim of "science".
 
Some can legitimately claim that linguistics has yet to come up with a mode
that can be called "science" in the sense of following the "scientific
method".  Originally linguistics was merely descriptive; then people
started to make models.  Chomsky tried to formalize the
models.  Loglan/Lojban is the first attempt I know to actually do
experimental linguistics and thereby TEST a model.
 
Interlingua is another linguistic model that was declared valid without
being subjected to experimental verification.  That was and still is the
normal mode of "scientific" linguistics.
 
>Who was tail-chasing? Just IALA. Novial and Occidental
>were cooperating effectively. Without Gode's interference,
>perhaps they could have been merged in the 50's.
 
They were dead with WW II of not before.  I suspect that Occidental was
doomed by Hitler's rise, simply because of the inherent polarization
regarding anything seen as having a German origin.
 
lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           [log in to unmask]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.

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