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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Gode (1) (Re: common vocabulary)

From:

Charles <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:51:23 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (231 lines)

Kjell Rehnstr=F6m wrote:
 
> > Then a "language unit" must be some kind of *hypothetical*
> > branch of Indo-european, because there are "units"
> > but they are not limited to "modern". This is naturalism?
> >
> I understand this in such a way that you cannot just take dictionries a=
nd
> compare them. You must also see if there are words that you find in one
> language but not in all, like finding traces of them in a given langaug=
e.
> Perhaps that was the science.
 
That sounds like an interpretive art, but not a quantitative science.
 
> You could af course use a larger group of western langauges. The includ=
ing of
> English, German and Russian as source languages - according to me - has=
 the
> function of making interlingua not to tilt into the Mediterranean.
 
I agree that English, German, and Russian, es indispensibil.
 
> > So, we just start from a Latin dictionary?
>=20
> We can, but we have to see if we can find that latin word in the source
> languages. E.g.:
> We will probably not find  _nox_ or _lax_
> represented in the source langauges, but _nocturnal_, _noctambule_;
> _lactation_. So the oblique stem in _noct/is, -i, -em, -e; and lact/is,=
 i, em,
> e is there.
 
I agree with your analysis, but in order to be precise,
we should say which language or dialect at which time,
and then how do we know if it is *sufficiently* international?
Quantification is lacking.
 
> I suppose that you can find such examples of backforming in any Europea=
n
> language if you look long enough. It is a normal way that language user=
s form
> new words that they nead.
 
But that "begged the question" of which words *are* international;
"potentially" *anything* is an international word.
He cheated, massively. There was no real system.
 
> If, but only if a given latin word has gotten into a sufficient number =
of
> source languages it can be taken into Interlingua. Many latin words tha=
t exist
> in the source langauges have changed their meaning and they can be take=
n into
> Interlingua if and only if they have the same meanings in the source
> languages.
 
I think that would be a good rule. But one must specify the dictionaries,
or cite the field work that collected the actual national vocabularies.
What are the criteria? Do we use only a 20,000 word student dictionary,
the Oxford dictionary, a word list from usenet postings, the current
available national corpus for English etc, or just Gode's shoebox?
 
No census was ever done. No testing among live humans.
No statistical or quantitative results whatsoever!
Would you buy prescription drugs from such as IALA?
 
> On the other hand there must be a
> lot of modern research into that as far as interpreting and translation=
 is
> concerned.
 
Ah, this is exactly my point. Today we can do it properly,
and we either must agree that IALA's result is irreproducible,
or confirm it (or some degree of each).
 
> _Proxime_ is perhaps an example of that. At least from an English point=
 of
> view. It belongs to the international vocabulary also by being there in=
 both
> Esperanto and Occidental! To avoid missunderstandings: Esperanto and
> Occidental are NOT source langauges for Interlingua.
 
I think they were. But Gode said that he would count an English attestati=
on
of *proxim as if it were a real current actual living word. Cheating!
 
> > > In a considerable number of cases where ideas of full international
> > > range happen to be represented by numerous and etymologically
> > > quite unrelated terms, adequate renderings in the international
> > > vocabulary can be found
> >
> > Yes, by using scrabble tiles, or throwing darts, or OUIJA.
> >
> This can certainly be said better.
 
But he means it! He just *invented* whenever the "method" failed.
Even such a method as accepts non-existent words as attested,
*still* *did* *not* *work* to generate a usable vocabulary!
 
> > This shows a complete confusion of roots, suffixes, compounds,
> > and another confusion of what is international vs. theoretical.
 
> It _is_ complicated. But they are giving an example here.
 
But it is not complicated: roots can be found, and affixes can be found.
They are separate things. To search for "proxim" *as-an-adjective*
was stupid, proxim is obviously a *root* in all languages. Then,
take the regular suffixes and you get proximar, proximita, etc.
Gode confused these simple things just to give himself "latitude".
 
> > > In a great many instances the prototype and hence the international
> > > form of a word does coincide with its etymological origin,
 
> I think _nocte_ and _lacte_ are examples of that.
 
He is saying that the prototype usually does *not* correspond
with etymology. So what does it usually correspond to?
Not with the attested national forms either, Gode says.
(Answer: It must correspond only with his own fancy.)
 
The two things provided by Godein his dictionary are:
Selection ... which words are internationally known?
Form ... what is the "prototype" for each?
 
His selection criteria and his prototypes were purely ad hoc.
IA is just an invented lang, it is not scientifically designed or tested,
it is a simulation of naturalism, but was not taken from nature.
 
> > Let's just stipulate here that there was no real algorithm, but
> > only "expert opinion" operating here. Try doing astronomy that way.
> >
> But it isn't. There are rules on how to form international words. You c=
an
> accept them or reject them, and if you don't believe in them you can sh=
ow why
> they are not correct and then suggest better rules or algorithms, as yo=
u say.
 
The "prototypes" (should be "roots") are designed be fiat and by fancy.
I am looking for the algorithm, but Gode says: not etymological,
not from dictionary, not from speech, so where from? It was faked.
 
If he said, "this is all invented by linguists" nobody would listen.
So he says, "this is all scientifically derived" which impresses,
but I am calling his bluff now, and he has no verifiable method to show.
 
> In interlingua the -e plays the role as a stress marker in words with
> antepenultimate stress. Take _humid_ (Int. _humide_). The Intelringua f=
or
> _easy_ is _facile_ (with stress on the _a_.) Compare that to English
> _juvenile_ where the long -i (ai) reflects the long latin -i- that give=
s
> interlingua _juvenil_ (being an alomorph of Latin _-alis_.
 
Understood.
 
> > > If this English "abstention" is not to allow Italian to settle
> > > the question in favor of its own unique usage, there remains only
> > > the possibility to let the prototype forms of the infinitive
> > > follow the model of comparable cases,
> >
> > Gode is joking here. Somehow.
> >
> No, he isn't. Both Interlingua and Occidental show forms that
 
[snipped example]
 
Those are interesting questions, and I don't disagree with your analysis,
but Gode is saying he doesn't have a 3-unit justification for it,
so by the rules, if they were followed, it is unacceptable. Sorry!
 
[snip myself]
 
> No, he generalizes the -e ending as in Spanish _grande_ and compares it=
 to
> _sanct(e)_. And you have _libere_. So if one language can show a neutra=
l form
> of the adjectives, all the source langauges can.
 
Anyone looking for a root, knowing there is gender in the natlang,
simply knocks off the -a -o -e whatever ... Gode finds this difficult!?
 
> > > The prototype, as discussed so far, may be defined as the
> > > nearest common documented or hypothetical ancestor
> >
> > Chris, did you actually read this stuff? It's ridiculous!
> >
> It could be written in a clearer way, but you have to read it in order =
to
> understand. It's a very dense text.
 
But not dense enough to hide in:
Gode says he accepts "hypothetical" ancestors???!!!!
 
[snip snip]
 
> If the net had not been there would not have been a problem. The positi=
ve
> thing about this is that small languages that had good features but no =
money
> and no movements have now been able to present themselves into discussi=
on.
 
They were presented in small journals, and all were reviewed in Kosmoglot.
De Wahl wanted to know them all. After 5 years though, he said that
language inventors would have to pay the cost of printing in his journal;
before that, he printed anything anyone sent. Medial, many dozens.
The internet is nothing new, and now the big media are taking control.
 
> Obviously _interlingua_ was a popular name, even selected by the
> Occidentalists in the form _interlingue_.
 
The word "interlingua" is itself an international word, a generic.
There are interlinguas de Peano, de Wahl, Gode, anybody.
 
> > This is all OK for a simulated language, or a nice conlang project.
> > It isn't real science, obviously, even by 1800's philological standar=
ds.
> > Dressing it up in academic CYA-ese doesn't disguise that (sufficientl=
y).
> >
> This can always be challanged. Any Romance Language or General Linguist=
ics
> department can examine it. Science is not constructing, it is learning.=
 The
> philologists at IALA were construction workers using their linguistics
> background to carry out the construction of Interlingua.
 
Yes exactly, and you have said it best.

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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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