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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Gode (1) (Re: common vocabulary)

From:

Charles <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:35:36 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

OK, part 2, quotes from www.interlingua.org,
from Gode's introduction to his dictionary:
 
> METHOD AND TECHNIQUES
>
> Words are eligible in the international vocabulary
> if they have currency throughout the Anglo-Romance sphere
>
> A word is to be accepted as international when its presence is
> attested - in corresponding forms and with corresponding meanings -
> in at least three of the language units
>
> The decision as to whether a word exists in a given language
> is not always a clear and simple matter.
>
> the investigation cannot in all instances be limited to the
> current modern vocabulary
 
Then a "language unit" must be some kind of *hypothetical*
branch of Indo-european, because there are "units"
but they are not limited to "modern". This is naturalism?
 
> this procedure justifies the inclusion in the international
> vocabulary of words corresponding with all Latin terms provided their
> concepts appear in one form or another in the modern languages
 
So, we just start from a Latin dictionary?
 
> correspondence of word forms in the various contributing
> languages needs to be allowed a certain latitude.
>
> the same suffix in various etymologically identical forms.
>
> There are numerous words which, paradoxically, do not occur
> in a particular language but are potentially present in it
>
> There ought to be an adjective *proxim or
> possibly *proximous.
 
So now there are words that are not present?
I must have misread this! Wait:
 
> permits the assertion that behind the noun proximity there exists -
> potentially if not in fact - an adjective which can join
> the actually existing Italian prossimo and thus contribute
> to the international standing of the simple adjective
 
That isn't "latitude", nor even *bloviation, which really
oughta be a word; Gode was just plain cheating outright!
 
If I "reproduce" methods like these, the entire Latin dictionary
with all of its derivatives will certainly be included,
not just 27,000 "international words". Should we include Greek
in this game, you will find the WordNet English dictionary
of 99,999 synsets (potential roots) puny by comparison.
 
Ah, but are they on Miss Eaton's list? I see now, how
grown men can while-away the hours and the grant money.
Like a sort of scientific solitaire ...
 
> The affixes which, when occurring in formations of limited range,
> carry them nevertheless into the international vocabulary,
> must be both frequent and clear.
>
> What has been said about affix formations of limited range
> applies likewise to compounds
>
> The word as such occurs in but one language, but the representation
> of its elements in all the contributing languages justifies the claim
> that the word is potentially international
 
I pause for oxygen.
 
> In a considerable number of cases where ideas of full international
> range happen to be represented by numerous and etymologically
> quite unrelated terms, adequate renderings in the international
> vocabulary can be found
 
Yes, by using scrabble tiles, or throwing darts, or OUIJA.
 
> they must be international. This implies that everything is to be
> eliminated from them that is a characteristic feature of but one
> particular language.
>
> Or again, if the word voracious is qualified to enter
> the international vocabulary,
 
This shows a complete confusion of roots, suffixes, compounds,
and another confusion of what is international vs. theoretical.
Wait, there's more, I suffered all the way through:
 
> In a great many instances the prototype and hence the international
> form of a word does coincide with its etymological origin,
 
Well, isn't that nice?
 
> A monolingual trait is to be disregarded provided such a procedure
> does not reduce the international range of the result below
> the stipulated minimum.
>
> Like all other formative elements, suffixes too appear in fixed
> prototype forms
 
Let's just stipulate here that there was no real algorithm, but
only "expert opinion" operating here. Try doing astronomy that way.
 
> leads to the introduction of two prototype forms, the one, -il,
> bearing the stress and omitting the final -e; the other, -ile,
> equipped with a final -e and occurring after a stressed syllable.
 
Confusion of written/spoken forms. Double stems ...
Gode obviously never read Kosmoglott, or Jesperson.
Maybe he was trying to make a *bad* IAL, to kill the idea?!?
Zamenhoff did that to kill reformism in Eo once and for all.
 
> If this English "abstention" is not to allow Italian to settle
> the question in favor of its own unique usage, there remains only
> the possibility to let the prototype forms of the infinitive
> follow the model of comparable cases,
 
Gode is joking here. Somehow.
 
> A special problem is posed by the class of adjectives which maintain
> in all Romance languages a difference between masculine and
> feminine forms. Here the prototype procedure collides
 
He can't find the root under the -o or -a? And the source langs all
have gender (Eng. only in pronouns), so he throws that out of IA?
 
> The prototype, as discussed so far, may be defined as the
> nearest common documented or hypothetical ancestor
 
Chris, did you actually read this stuff? It's ridiculous!
 
> it will have the appearance of the crude (i.e., truncated)
> form of the Latin oblique cases.
 
Gode did NOT say: Peano's Interlingua was based on the ablative;
we have taken this method and the name of his language.
 
> derivatives must always be made to have a bearing on the prototype forms
>
> ... derivatives have on their base, establishes in the standardized
> international vocabulary clear continuities in derivational series
>
> The principle which governs the limitation of derivational series
> or word families in the international vocabulary is that of a
> parallel between formal and semantic continuities.
>
> the international derivatives from some of these compounds
> (abstinente, continente, etc.) force them back into the Latin pattern
> and the infinitives appear in the international vocabulary
>
> Derivatives from these relatively recent loan words are not very frequent.
 
Perhaps no sense was ever intended by Gode here,
and it is just more squid-ink.
 
This is all OK for a simulated language, or a nice conlang project.
It isn't real science, obviously, even by 1800's philological standards.
Dressing it up in academic CYA-ese doesn't disguise that (sufficiently).
 
To be continued next time I can't sleep ...

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January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
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January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 4
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
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March 1998, Week 1
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February 1998, Week 1
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December 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
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February 1997, Week 1

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