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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Helen Eaton

From:

"Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Sep 1999 05:15:09 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (191 lines)

Charles:
> >     In which case I am not going to get into the squabbling as to what
> > the Interlingua methodology really is or was.  I am more interested in
> > what languages are, now how they got to be whatever or however they
> > are.
>
>OK. Perhaps you'd like to know where your IA vocabulary came from.
>
>At present, it seems to be a mix of the Occidental Radicarium
>and a word list by one Miss Helen Eaton.
>
>(Easton? I can find no mention of such person in any of my books,
>nor on the web. Please assist me, somebody.)
 
Helen Eaton worked for IALA, and researched to determine the 8000 most used
concepts (not words) in 4 European languages: English, German, French,
Spanish.  IALA apparently published her results in 1938; it is work that
had not been done before nor to my knowledge has anything comparable been
done since.  Wordlists not being typical best sellers, and Eaton's list
being based on the language usage of the 20s (no techno-terminology in it
to speak of %^), it went out of print ages ago.
 
James Cooke Brown used Eaton's list as a primary criterion for which words
should be roots in Loglan based on word frequency, modified by a couple of
other lists that stressed semantic primitiveness.
 
The book had enough usefulness that sometime in the 60s or 70s, Dover
Publications brought it back into print in one of its quality paperback
editions, but it did not stay on the market indefinitely.  I have never
actually seen a Dover copy; I suspect that the people who bought them did
so with no intent on getting rid of them.  But JCB made Xerox copies of the
Dover book, and distributed them to people who were doing Loglan vocabulary
work in the 80s, because his goal then was to fill out the language lexicon
to cover the full Eaton list.  I have collected two or three of these
copies from Loglanists who have sent me their accumulated stuff, and at
some time we will produce a Lojban lexicon covering all of Eaton.
 
>I had guessed Thorndike, a more reasonable choice, but no.
 
Never heard of it; it certain is not the same thing as Eaton's work.
 
> > They might, but language evolution is a generational thing, not a  5 year
> > treaty thing.  Give it 300 years without internecine wars and Interlingua
> > and Esperanto might converge enough that ecumenical merger would be
> practical.
>
>Maybe, but English moves faster than that ...
 
I doubt it.  Other languages borrow heavily from English, but not that
much.  And British and American English still have a way to go before they
coalesce.
 
> > >No, it implies that the dictionary is totally *superfluous*.
> >
> > Only if everyone knows the supposed international vocabulary distinct from
> > their own language.  Personally, I think the concept that there is an
> > international vocabulary is useful ONLY to those who have studied a second
> > European language and OBSERVED what kinds of words are "international".
>
>No, contrarily. All you need is English OR French OR ...
>My method is this: I need an international word for rock or stone.
>I think "xxhmmxxtion, stonifixx, petrification, petre!"
 
Why would the naive American think that "stone" or "rock" is not itself an
international word?  In which case Occidental will look remarkably like
English (as in identical).
 
>The international words are found in their derivatives in all languages.
>So seriously, you know probably 90% before even beginning to study.
 
I'm sure I know a lot of international words.  I just don't know which
words are NOT international words.
 
>Take a random sample of text from any newspaper, grab the -tion, -al,
>and -ive words. What do you see? These words are international already.
 
Those words are Latinate words.  They may be international among the
Romance speakers; I know they are not necessarily so among Germans, much
less Russians.
 
 > > > "the result will be a welcome _rapprochement_ of the several systems
> > >
> > >No, the result was intended as yet-another-new-project,
> > >which rejected all preceding ones without learning from them.
> >
> > I am not a proponent of any of the Euroclones, but I think this statement
> > is both biased and insulting.  Interlingua learned from preceding efforts -
> > they just did not learn what you wanted them to learn.
>
>I wasn't there, but I'd like to see "this idea is from Novial/Eo"
>or "this technique is from Occ/Ido". Do you now of any evidence
>that prior ideas were used? None were credited.
 
Being specific as to sources and crediting the languages sounds like a good
way to promote scorecarding and either increased jealousy among factions or
quota systems for ensuring "fairness".
 
>IA was a dream-fantasy-invention of one man. If you like it,
>OK. It was not what it claimed to be, however.
 
Is anything?
 
> > ILR was the closest thing to an unbiased forum on auxlangs that ever
> > existed.  You should definitely look for copies.
>
>Cool. I've read some of Pei's books years ago. I will search.
 
I don't think Pei was involved.  Publisher was a guy named Hardin in
Colorado.  It was slightly better quality than an SF fanzine, but of the
same vein.  Around 1970, it was bought out and was published under a
different name for maybe five years, and then died out.
 
 >The naturalistic ones can operate just byusing them on innocent people.
 
Oft claimed, but even a not so innocent like me gets nothing out of them.
 
> > Agreed.  But the squabbling is more fun for a lot of people.  I think a lot
> > of Auxlangers are more interested in the *concept* of an auxlang than in
> > the pragmatics of actually mastering any of them.  I am reminded for
> > example of Bruce Gilson as a strident squabbler who never seemed to learn
> > any auxlang well enough to write in it.
>
>Ples ne tentar me a postar solmen in Occidental,
 
Please don't tempt me to post solely in Occidental (or is that solemnly?)
 
>yo es devenent tant confortabil in it, it estro enjoyabil,
 
I am a deviant aunt comfortable in it, it ovulates enjoyably.
 
>yo mey forjetar Angles!
 
I may forget English.
 
 >It es plu facil, ne un mentir.
 
It is more facil not a mental.
 
  Ma Occ es plu facil por Americanes
>porque it usa li analytic verbal conjugation.
 
Especially when you use unmodified English words for half the sentence.
 
> > Some can legitimately claim that linguistics has yet to come up with a mode
> > that can be called "science" in the sense of following the "scientific
> > method".  Originally linguistics was merely descriptive;
>
>Si solmen Sr. Gode hat secuet ti method!
 
Yes only/solemnly Gode as secured this method.
 
>On posse far to hodie, descovrir li international lingue de Europa.
 
A posse far too (howdie?), discovered the international language of Europe.
 
> > then people
> > started to make models.  Chomsky tried to formalize the
> > models.  Loglan/Lojban is the first attempt I know to actually do
> > experimental linguistics and thereby TEST a model.
>
>In lingues, it ne es necessi que noi have just un solmen.
>Contrarimen, si li lingues es sufficentli facil,
>noi vell aprendar lu quelc.
 
In languages, it isn't necessary what not have just a solely.  Contrarily
yes the languages is sufficiently facil  not well apprehend the ??? quell.
 
> > They were dead with WW II of not before.  I suspect that Occidental was
> > doomed by Hitler's rise, simply because of the inherent polarization
> > regarding anything seen as having a German origin.
>
>Yo opine que ti perception es baset solmen sur propaganda (publicity).
>Li masse-media arogate-se judicar quel ili ne save necoses!
 
My opinion what the perception is based solely below propaganda or
publicity [why someone would equate the two, I do not know]  The mass media
is arrogant judges what or not save un-causes/necks.
 
{Sorry Charles, but if you respond to me in Euroclone, I really won't have
any idea what you are saying.  If I tried to respond to you likewise, it
would be even worse.  I'll spare everyone.)
 
lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           [log in to unmask]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.

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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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