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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Gode (1) (Re: common vocabulary)

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:45:51 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (256 lines)

Charles wrote:
>
I don't know how many times I have read that piece about method and techniques
and as always I tried to compare the examples. Perhaps I can contribute
somehting here.
 
> OK, part 2, quotes from www.interlingua.org,
> from Gode's introduction to his dictionary:
>
> > METHOD AND TECHNIQUES
> >
> > Words are eligible in the international vocabulary
> > if they have currency throughout the Anglo-Romance sphere
> >
> > A word is to be accepted as international when its presence is
> > attested - in corresponding forms and with corresponding meanings -
> > in at least three of the language units
> >
> > The decision as to whether a word exists in a given language
> > is not always a clear and simple matter.
> >
> > the investigation cannot in all instances be limited to the
> > current modern vocabulary
>
> Then a "language unit" must be some kind of *hypothetical*
> branch of Indo-european, because there are "units"
> but they are not limited to "modern". This is naturalism?
>
I understand this in such a way that you cannot just take dictionries and
compare them. You must also see if there are words that you find in one
language but not in all, like finding traces of them in a given langauge.
Perhaps that was the science.
 
You could af course use a larger group of western langauges. The including of
English, German and Russian as source languages - according to me - has the
function of making interlingua not to tilt into the Mediterranean.
 
> > this procedure justifies the inclusion in the international
> > vocabulary of words corresponding with all Latin terms provided their
> > concepts appear in one form or another in the modern languages
>
> So, we just start from a Latin dictionary?
>
We can, but we have to see if we can find that latin word in the source
languages. E.g.:
We will probably not find  _nox_ or _lax_
represented in the source langauges, but _nocturnal_, _noctambule_;
_lactation_. So the oblique stem in _noct/is, -i, -em, -e; and lact/is, i, em,
e is there.
 
> > correspondence of word forms in the various contributing
> > languages needs to be allowed a certain latitude.
> >
> > the same suffix in various etymologically identical forms.
> >
> > There are numerous words which, paradoxically, do not occur
> > in a particular language but are potentially present in it
> >
> > There ought to be an adjective *proxim or
> > possibly *proximous.
>
> So now there are words that are not present?
> I must have misread this! Wait:
>
I suppose that you can find such examples of backforming in any European
language if you look long enough. It is a normal way that language users form
new words that they nead.
 
> > permits the assertion that behind the noun proximity there exists -
> > potentially if not in fact - an adjective which can join
> > the actually existing Italian prossimo and thus contribute
> > to the international standing of the simple adjective
>
> That isn't "latitude", nor even *bloviation, which really
> oughta be a word; Gode was just plain cheating outright!
>
> If I "reproduce" methods like these, the entire Latin dictionary
> with all of its derivatives will certainly be included,
> not just 27,000 "international words". Should we include Greek
> in this game, you will find the WordNet English dictionary
> of 99,999 synsets (potential roots) puny by comparison.
>
If, but only if a given latin word has gotten into a sufficient number of
source languages it can be taken into Interlingua. Many latin words that exist
in the source langauges have changed their meaning and they can be taken into
Interlingua if and only if they have the same meanings in the source
languages.
 
When the Finns at YLE International use Latin to send a news summary in it,
they don't, as far as I have seen, use _*hospitalis_ for English _hospital_
but they use _nossocomium_ (sp) which is Greek.
 
> Ah, but are they on Miss Eaton's list? I see now, how
> grown men can while-away the hours and the grant money.
> Like a sort of scientific solitaire ...
>
If you are interested you can check it out. On the other hand there must be a
lot of modern research into that as far as interpreting and translation is
concerned.
 
> > The affixes which, when occurring in formations of limited range,
> > carry them nevertheless into the international vocabulary,
> > must be both frequent and clear.
> >
> > What has been said about affix formations of limited range
> > applies likewise to compounds
> >
> > The word as such occurs in but one language, but the representation
> > of its elements in all the contributing languages justifies the claim
> > that the word is potentially international
>
_Proxime_ is perhaps an example of that. At least from an English point of
view. It belongs to the international vocabulary also by being there in both
Esperanto and Occidental! To avoid missunderstandings: Esperanto and
Occidental are NOT source langauges for Interlingua.
 
> I pause for oxygen.
>
> > In a considerable number of cases where ideas of full international
> > range happen to be represented by numerous and etymologically
> > quite unrelated terms, adequate renderings in the international
> > vocabulary can be found
>
> Yes, by using scrabble tiles, or throwing darts, or OUIJA.
>
This can certainly be said better.
 
> > they must be international. This implies that everything is to be
> > eliminated from them that is a characteristic feature of but one
> > particular language.
> >
> > Or again, if the word voracious is qualified to enter
> > the international vocabulary,
>
> This shows a complete confusion of roots, suffixes, compounds,
> and another confusion of what is international vs. theoretical.
> Wait, there's more, I suffered all the way through:
>
It _is_ complicated. But they are giving an example here.
 
> > In a great many instances the prototype and hence the international
> > form of a word does coincide with its etymological origin,
>
> Well, isn't that nice?
>
I think _nocte_ and _lacte_ are examples of that.
 
> > A monolingual trait is to be disregarded provided such a procedure
> > does not reduce the international range of the result below
> > the stipulated minimum.
> >
> > Like all other formative elements, suffixes too appear in fixed
> > prototype forms
>
> Let's just stipulate here that there was no real algorithm, but
> only "expert opinion" operating here. Try doing astronomy that way.
>
But it isn't. There are rules on how to form international words. You can
accept them or reject them, and if you don't believe in them you can show why
they are not correct and then suggest better rules or algorithms, as you say.
 
> > leads to the introduction of two prototype forms, the one, -il,
> > bearing the stress and omitting the final -e; the other, -ile,
> > equipped with a final -e and occurring after a stressed syllable.
>
> Confusion of written/spoken forms. Double stems ...
> Gode obviously never read Kosmoglott, or Jesperson.
> Maybe he was trying to make a *bad* IAL, to kill the idea?!?
> Zamenhoff did that to kill reformism in Eo once and for all.
>
In interlingua the -e plays the role as a stress marker in words with
antepenultimate stress. Take _humid_ (Int. _humide_). The Intelringua for
_easy_ is _facile_ (with stress on the _a_.) Compare that to English
_juvenile_ where the long -i (ai) reflects the long latin -i- that gives
interlingua _juvenil_ (being an alomorph of Latin _-alis_.
 
> > If this English "abstention" is not to allow Italian to settle
> > the question in favor of its own unique usage, there remains only
> > the possibility to let the prototype forms of the infinitive
> > follow the model of comparable cases,
>
> Gode is joking here. Somehow.
>
No, he isn't. Both Interlingua and Occidental show forms that are identical to
those in one of their source languages. In both Interlingua and Occidental you
have _yo_ (it is optional in Interlingua for the more common _io_). As such I
understand interlingua _ascoltar_. Occidental on its side has _vez_, _hay_
which are pure Spanish.
 
> > A special problem is posed by the class of adjectives which maintain
> > in all Romance languages a difference between masculine and
> > feminine forms. Here the prototype procedure collides
>
> He can't find the root under the -o or -a? And the source langs all
> have gender (Eng. only in pronouns), so he throws that out of IA?
>
No, he generalizes the -e ending as in Spanish _grande_ and compares it to
_sanct(e)_. And you have _libere_. So if one language can show a neutral form
of the adjectives, all the source langauges can.
 
> > The prototype, as discussed so far, may be defined as the
> > nearest common documented or hypothetical ancestor
>
> Chris, did you actually read this stuff? It's ridiculous!
>
It could be written in a clearer way, but you have to read it in order to
understand. It's a very dense text.
 
> > it will have the appearance of the crude (i.e., truncated)
> > form of the Latin oblique cases.
>
> Gode did NOT say: Peano's Interlingua was based on the ablative;
> we have taken this method and the name of his language.
>
If the net had not been there would not have been a problem. The positive
thing about this is that small languages that had good features but no money
and no movements have now been able to present themselves into discussion.
 
An example that you cannot use the ablative to form Interlingua words is
_information_. The ablative is _informatione_. It is the oblique stem
_information/_ that makes it into Interlingua, and as only _italian_ has a
final -e, the Interlingua word is _information_.
 
Obviously _interlingua_ was a popular name, even selected by the
Occidentalists in the form _interlingue_.
 
> > derivatives must always be made to have a bearing on the prototype forms
> >
> > ... derivatives have on their base, establishes in the standardized
> > international vocabulary clear continuities in derivational series
> >
> > The principle which governs the limitation of derivational series
> > or word families in the international vocabulary is that of a
> > parallel between formal and semantic continuities.
> >
> > the international derivatives from some of these compounds
> > (abstinente, continente, etc.) force them back into the Latin pattern
> > and the infinitives appear in the international vocabulary
> >
> > Derivatives from these relatively recent loan words are not very frequent.
>
> Perhaps no sense was ever intended by Gode here,
> and it is just more squid-ink.
>
> This is all OK for a simulated language, or a nice conlang project.
> It isn't real science, obviously, even by 1800's philological standards.
> Dressing it up in academic CYA-ese doesn't disguise that (sufficiently).
>
This can always be challanged. Any Romance Language or General Linguistics
department can examine it. Science is not constructing, it is learning. The
philologists at IALA were construction workers using their linguistics
background to carry out the construction of Interlingua.
 
 
> To be continued next time I can't sleep ...

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June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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