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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Arkones/Esperanto report

From:

Charles <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:31:23 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (78 lines)

maf wrote:
 
> > ... the other half is, could each person usually make himself understood??
 
> You're right that being "grammatical" is irrelevant to communication in general
> terms, my point is that even when they try, many speakers find following the
> fundamento a bit hard.There wasn't much misunderstanding ... but a lot of
> communication was on a pretty superficial level and the context was one of general
> goodwill. You don't need much expertise to communicate in that type of situation, a
> few words and smiles will do in almost any language.
>
> The real test of fluency is in adversarial interactions. In some parts of Latin
> America a common affirmative answer to "do you speak language X" is "I can defend
> myself".
 
Maybe it would be better to forbid adversarial communication.
 
> > A further question: when stuck, do you think the speaker had in mind
> > a word or phrase? Did they often mumble a German or Polish word then?
> > If so, would it have been easier to think of an "international" word?
>
> Objection! Your Honor! He's leading the witness!!!
 
Yes, and I was trying very hard to do so.
 
> Seriously, I do this a lot in speaking Esperanto. The problem is it either doesn't
> work very well or isn't appreciated, even when it's understood.
 
Good, this is helping my case.
 
> It doesn't work very for two reasons
> The first is the context of Esperanto isn't about that. (awkward response, let me
> rephrase that).
 
But I think the witness has been ALL TOO CLEAR already ... (to the jury)
 
> 'Extroverted' language communities (such as English, Spanish,
> Russian, some others I'm sure) are typically ethnically diverse and attitudes towards
> "correctness" (as in using only certain words and forms) are kind of blase.
 
Such as any true auxlang community? (judge admonishes/stifles counsel)
 
> 'Introverted' language communities (Polish, Hungarian that I've come in contact with)
> often share a feeling of lingusitic persecution
 
> Partly this is
> because of feelings the language has to be protected and partly because language is
> mostly restricted to native speakers. I remember a Polish student/friend was
> _shocked_ to hear me speak Polish with a German.
 
> Officially, Esperanto is 'extroverted' but the day to day reality is more
> 'introverted'.
 
(long, depressed silence)
 
> Another reason is that as I'm sure others have pointed out, Esperanto vocab. is
> probably closer to Lojban's in a strange sort of way than to say Ia's or Occi's.
> Learning a word, there are usually hooks that will help a wensa-speaker recognize it,
> but a wensa-speaker can't "operationalize" their first (or second) language
> vocabulary and apply it to Esperanto. The use of "international" vocab in Eo is
> strictly one-way. When I have vocab gaps in Eo I sometimes take a Spanish word and
> "eo-ize" it and the result is almost never Esperanto (it may or may not be
> understandable to the interlocutor). I have no strong opinion about the optimality of
> this approach. It does make Eo a bit fairer for non-wensans and more difficult for
> wensans at least in active speaking. But another effect of this is that most
> Esperanto speakers aren't dipping freely into the "modern latin" parts of their
> brains while speaking Esperanto so those parts aren't quite as recognizable when they
> do appear.
 
That would be the relative strength/advantage of Occidental, its mixing freely
with all the euronatlangs. I had the experience of my old high-school french
being re-awakened by it ... but in a nice way.
 
> I've got more, but I'll swat the ball back in your court.
 
Never mind me, just continue with your theories and
observations. We'll hang you anyway.

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