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AUXLANG  September 1999, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1999, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Martinet dismissed from IALA

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:11:02 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (191 lines)

Je 12:14 ptm 9/30/99 -0700, charles skribis
 
>maf wrote:
>
> > This is the reason that I would suggest that Occidental restrict it's=20
> simple tenses
> > to present (imperfective, for example 'dire') and past (perfective=20
> 'diret') and not
> > mess around with past participles as parts of verb phrases (have=20
> diret). (all my
> > occi forms might be wrong)
>
>Occ uses the simple root for present: "usa =3D uses".
>Infinitive is root + "-r" ... "usar =3D to use".
>Two participles: "usant =3D using", "usat =3D used".
 
So the present (active) participle of "finir" is "finint"?
 
>No verb conjugations to learn. Instead, use an auxiliary
>plus the infinitive or participle. Analytic, like English.
>
>"ha usat" is like french passe compose, a present perfect.
>"hat usat =3D had used", "har usat =3D having used",
>"va usar =3D going to use", "vell usar =3D would use",
>"vole usar =3D want to use", "pose usar =3D can use".
 
I guess I'm just confused as to what constitutes a "conjugation". If you=20
have a morpheme for each tense and put it before some part of the verb,=20
with a space, it's not a conjugation, but if you put it after some part of=
=20
the verb, without a space, it is?
 
(By the way, the conversion from "usa" in the present to "usat" in other=20
tenses and moods is, to me, a bit disconcerting for a language without a=20
conjugation...)
 
>For a past that may be either perfect or imperfect,
>they seem to use just "usat" (p.p.), but de Wahl said
>that was really a lazy sloppy pidgin way of saying "ha usat".
>
>This is a key difference between Interlingua and Occidental.
>I honestly tried but failed to learn Ia, succeeded with Occ,
>and the reason seems to be the analytic verbal system.
 
Gilbert provides a nifty table of comparisons between the two languages.=20
For those interested, I reproduce his presentation of the verbs here.=20
Readers may prefer to make their own judgements about which is easier or=20
whether it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. English translation=
=20
is my own. Because of the limitations of e-mail, I'm not putting it in=20
parallel columns as he did...
 
INFINITIVE
 
Occidental: Ending -r or -er. E.g. "ama-r" (=3D to love), "fini-r" (=3D to=
=20
finish, bring to an end), "vid-er" (=3D to see). (1)
 
Interlingua: As in Occidental.
 
(1) In fact it is necessary to learn whether the "verb" roots end in -a, -i=
=20
or a consonant. In practice, there are then three infinitives: -ar, -er,=
 -ir.
 
PRESENT TENSE
 
Occidental: Verb root, i.e. without the above ending -r. E.g. "yo ama", "tu=
=20
fini", "il vide" (=3D I love, thou endest, he sees). Exception: "yo es" =3D=
 "yo=20
esse" (=3D I am).
 
Interlingua: As in Occidental. Exceptions: "yo es" =3D "yo esse" (=3D I am);=
=20
"illes son" =3D "illes es" (=3D they are); "yo ha" =3D "yo habe" (=3D I=
 have).
 
PAST TENSE (PRETERITE)
 
Occidental: Ending -t: "yo ama-t" (=3D I loved).
 
Interlingua: Ending -va: "yo ama-va" (=3D I loved).
 
FUTURE
 
Occidental: Auxiliary verb "va" followed by the infinitive: "il va venir"=20
(=3D they will come).
 
Interlingua: Ending -a accented, after the infinitive, or auxiliary verb=20
"va" as in Occ.: "yo essera" =3D "yo va esser" (=3D I will be)
 
CONDITIONAL
 
Occidental: Auxiliary verb "vell" followed by the infinitive: "vu vell=20
esser" (=3D you would be").
 
Interlingua: Ending -ea after the infinitive: "ille venirea" (=3D he would=
 come).
 
IMPERATIVE
 
Occidental: Verb root, same as for the present: "veni!" (=3D come!). Polite=
=20
form: "ples venir" (=3D please come).
 
Interlingua: Verb root, same as in Occidental. For general orders,=20
forbiddings, etc., you can use the infinitive: "non fumar!" (no smoking).
 
PARTICIPLES
 
Occidental: "Ama-nt" (=3D loving). "Ama-t" (=3D loved). To verbs ending with=
=20
-ir you add -ent instead of -nt, for the active participle: "audi-ent" (=3D=
=20
hearing).
 
Interlingua: Same principle as in Occidental, but the participles end in=20
-nte and -te instead of -nt and -t.
 
Author's note: Complex forms are necessary in Occidental and in Interlingua=
=20
to translate many of Esperanto's participles: "hant amat" (=3D aminta),=
 "hant=20
esset amat" (=3D amita), etc. (DH's note: would "amota" then by "vant esser=
=20
amat"?) The participles are by name "present" (ending -nt or -ent, -nte or=
=20
-ente) or "past" (ending -t or -te).
 
COMPLEX TENSES
 
Occidental: "Yo ha venit" (=3D I have come). "Yo hat venit" (=3D I had=
 come).=20
"Yo va har venit" (=3D I shall have come). "Yo vell har venit" (=3D I would=
=20
have come).
 
Interlingua: "Yo ha venite", etc. (similar method to Occidental).
 
Author's note: It will be noted that in complex tenses an auxiliary verb=20
(simplified form of the verb "to have") is used, followed by the passive=20
participle, instead of the verb "to be". (DH's note: this was written for=20
an Esperanto-reading audience, some of whose members may have been=20
unfamiliar with the IE procedure of showing voice by choice of an auxiliary=
=20
verb rather than by choice of a word-building [participial] suffix.)
 
QUESTION FORM
 
Occidental: "Esque vu va venir?" (=3D Are you going to come?).
 
Interlingua: "An vu venira?" =3D "Venira vu?" (=3D Are you going to come?).
 
NEGATIVE FORM
 
Occidental: "Ella ne va venir" (=3D She will not come).
 
Interlingua: "Illa non venira" (=3D She will not come).
 
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)
 
Mikaelo Gi=FEpling, Kanto pri Donki=B6otoj, nun legeblas (Latin-3) =E6e
   http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/kanto_pri_donkihxot=
=20
http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/kanto_pri_donkihxotoj.=
=20
html
a=FD Unikode =E6e
   http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/kanto_pri_donkihxot=
=20
http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/kanto_pri_donkihxotoju=
=20
.html
 
Mikaelo Bron=FEtejn, Avinjo Jeanne, nun legeblas (Latin-3) =E6e
   http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/avinjo_jeanne.html
a=FD Unikode =E6e
   http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/avinjo_jeanneu.html
 
Mikaelo Bron=FEtejn, Verdaj karavanoj, nun legeblas (Latin-3) =E6e
  =
 http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/verdaj_karavanoj.html
a=FD Unikode =E6e
  =
 http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/verdaj_karavanoju.htm=
l

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December 2004, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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