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CONLANG  October 1999, Week 1

CONLANG October 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Brainstorming! Relative clauses

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:23:41 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, taliesin the storyteller wrote:

> I'm currently struggling with understanding the rel. cl. of my lang
> correctly, and thought I'd look at how it works in other langs.
> Unfortunately, it seems that relative clauses is part of the grammar
> that is 'not yet online' :) Does it change too often?
>
> Anyways, how -do- you do relative clauses in your conlangs? Here's
> something for y'all to translate... (substitute words when necessary...)
>
> rel. subject:
> "The dog that saw the cat was large."

A rel. cl. here is possible in Kernu:
Il  cu  ke   la  ngatte ys wedeit eoer magnos.
The dog that the cat    he saw    was  large

More natural, however is to avoid one:
Il  cu  la  ngatte ys wedeit ach      eoer magnos.
The dog the cat    he saw    and (he) was  big.

Note that the genders can be played with a bit, such that magnos (masc.)
can only modify the pooch, since the cat is feminine.  Speakers don't
always think ahead to separate genders in this way (and sometimes the two
are the same gender) so there will be some confusion.  If this is the
case, a short explanatory phrase might be tacked on:

...eoer magnos ... il  cu.
...was  big    ... the dog.

>
> rel. object:
> "The dog saw the cat that killed the mouse."

Il  cu  le  ngatte ke   la  luchette ys godnethu ys wetheit.
The dog the cat    that the mouse    he slew     he saw.

> nested:
> "The dog that saw the cat that killed the mouse that was large drank
> from the river that John put the poison in."

Sorry, nested clause overload!  The natural solution is to rearrange the
chunks and declausulate some of them:
Il  cu  de l'avon    per Jowanon envenenizue ys bebev, achys le  ngatte
the dog of the river by  John    poisoned    he drank, &-he  the cat

ce que la  luchette magh ys godnethu ys wedeit.
who    the mouse    big  he slew     he saw

Otherwise you get this mess:
Il  cu  ke   le  ngatte ke   la  luchette ke   fu  magna ys godnethu
The dog that the cat    that the mouse    that was big   he slew

ys wetheit de l'avon    do kei  il Jowan le  mhenenon ys daphoneus
he saw     of the river to whom John     the poison   he put

ys bevu.
he drank

Hardly understandable, but at least grammatical, in a sadistic sort of
way. Problem is, verbs get chucked to the back of the sentence, so when
you nest clauses this way you end up with a string of verbs that the
listener is compelled to sort out in a bemused haze.  It would be possible
to rearrange somewhat, but comprehensibility would still be lowish.

>
> rel. indirect object:
> "The dog that John gave the ball to."

Il  cu  do kei  il Jowan le  mballon ys deda.
The dog to whom John     the ball    he gave.

>
> rel. oblique:
> "The mouse that the cat chewed on." or,
> "The cat that the dog was bigger than."

La  luchets as quen il  cats ys amosmordait.
The mouse   on whom the cat  he on-gnawed

Il  cu  ke  fu  plu magh kel    cats.
The dog who was bigger than the cat.

>
> rel. posessor:
> "The dog saw the cat whose teeth were huge."

Il  cu  la  ngatte do kei  ay        y   denti magh ys wetheit.
The dog the cat    to whom there are the teeth big  he saw.

Thanks for the exercise!  Lesson learnt: few rel. clauses is good, lots of
nested clauses is bad!

Padraic.

>
> Yep, they're inspired by the relative-clause section in "Describing
> Morphosyntax" (see http://members.xoom.com/pc451/Conlang/questions.html)
>
>
> tal.
> --
> "Better living through conlanging"
>

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