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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Interlingua - Asian "version"

From:

"Leo J. Moser" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:11:29 PST

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (189 lines)

Some of you may be interested in the same excerpt as put
into the "globally oriented" constructed language "Dunia"
by its creator Ed Robertson:
 
Al sol decir wa: wo nomin es sol. Wo ochen chamkila. Wo salir zai
shark, dan dotoki wo salir, sotoki tag. Wo mirar jing ni window
yong wo okul chamkila ru aurum, dan wo decir ni dotoki wakat es
bahwa ni levantar. Wo decir ni wa: Ya sust ren, levantar ba. Wo
chamkila bu agar ni permanecer dormir zai bed, tetapi agar ni poder
levantar dan trabajar, agar ni leer dan pasear.
 
On         Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:47:12 -0800, Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
 
> Je 09:52 atm 11/8/99 -0800, Leo MOSER skribis
>
> >Once upon a time, either Dr. Gode or Mario Pei, when
> >describing Gode's position, did a hypothetical translation
> >of a text into a hypothetical IAL form using not just
> >European but a proportion of Asian roots:
> >
> > > The text in English:
> >
> >   > The sun says: My name is sun. I am very brilliant. I rise in the
> >   > east, and when I rise it is day. I look through your window with my
> >   > eye as bright as gold, and I tell you when it is time to get up.
> >   > And I say to you: Lazy one, get up. I don't shine so that you may
> >   > stay in bed sleeping, but that you may get up and work, that you
> >   > read and go walking.
> >
> >The Hypothetical semi-Asian Interlingua translation was :
> >
> >   > Mata-hari yu: Wo-ti nama mata-hari. Wo taihen brillante. Wo leva
> >   > wo a est, dan toki wo leva wo, ada hari. Wo miru per ni-ti fenestra
> >   > sama wo-ti mata brillante como kin, dan wo yu ni toki ada tempo a
> >   > levar ni. Dan wo yu ni: Sust, leva ni. Wo non brilla sam-rap ni
> >   > tomaru a toko a nemuru, sed wo brilla sam-rap ni leva ni, dan que
> >   > ni suru kam, ni yomu, dan ni aruku.
> >
> >The point was to show that the use of nonEuropean roots
> >would lead to a loss of recognizability for everyone,
> >and gain little for Asians.
>
> Problem is that Gode's argument is fallacious because he addresses only
one=
> =20
> point of the entire complex that goes into defining a language --=20
> recognizability of vocabulary (for a limited subset of humanity:=20
> well-educated Westerners) -- and ignores all others, e.g. removal of=20
> morphological and syntactical idiosyncrasies. Or euphony. I would have
to=20
> agree with Robin Turner that the "intercontinentalized" Interlingua=20
> actually sounds quite nice -- to my ear, nicer than the=20
> "southwest-European" version.
 
Well, I obviously have my views on this, but won't go
into them here and now.
 
> As far as I am concerned, the only really valid reason for limiting
the=20
> source of an IAL's vocabulary is that ... the creator of the IAL
simply=20
> finds himself better able to work with that limited source. From my
point=20
> of view, in the long run it doesn't really matter to the ultimate user=20
> whether a single source language (e.g. English) contributes the
vocabulary,=
> =20
> or it is proportionally taken from all the languages of the world.
There=20
> are other, more important factors to consider.
>
> >It is mentioned several places (including Pei's "One Language
> >for the World" 1958) but I'd like to clarify the origin? Was
> >this something done by Gode?
>
> Pei writes: "By way of demonstration, he offers the following
passage..."=20
> Since the last person referred to in the text is Gode, presumably the
"he"=
> =20
> refers to the good Doctor. Cf. the work you mention, pp. 171-172.
 
Do we have any evidence that Gode did this example
and not Pei?
 
> >And more importantly, how would this text come out in
> >normal Interlingua?
>
> Gode did, in fact, include this, and Pei quotes it.
>
> "Le sol dice: 'Io me appella sol. Io es multo brillante. Io me leva al
est,=
> =20
> e quando io me leva, il es die. Io reguarda per tu fenestra con mi
oculo=20
> brillante como le auro, e io te dice quando il es tempore a levar te. E
io=
> =20
> te dice: "Pigro, leva te. Io non brilla a fin que to resta al lecto a=20
> dormir, sed que tu te leva e labora, que tu lege e que tu te promena."'"
>
> Chris Burd's translation, for comparison, read:
>
> "Le sol dice: Mi nomine es sol. Io es multo brillante. Io me leva in
le=20
> est, e quando io me leva, il es die. Io regarde per tu fenestra con mi=20
> oculos tanto brillante como le aure, e io te dice quando il es tempore
a=20
> levar te. E io te dice: Pigro, leva te. Io non brilla a fin que tu
resta=20
> dormiente in lecto, ma a fin que tu va levar te e laborar e que tu va
leger=
> =20
> e ambular."
>
> Most differences between the two would appear to be normal "choice"=20
> differences between two different and equally legitimate ways of
expressing=
> =20
> the same thing. Two of them would, I would guess, be due to typos in
Pei's=
> =20
> presentation ("reguarda" instead of "regarde" -- though there might be
some=
> =20
> question about the ending -- and "to" instead of "tu"). I'm a little=20
> worried about "aure" vs. "auro". Chris's plural "oculos" is obviously a=
>  typo.
>
> >Or in Esperanto -- or other languages?
>
> Esperanto
>
> "La suno diras: 'Mia nomo estas suno. Mi estas tre brila. Mi levi=F8as en
la=
> =20
> oriento, kaj kiam mi levi=F8as, estas tago. Mi rigardas tra via fenestro
per=
> =20
> mia okulo tiel brila kiel oro, kaj mi diras al vi, kiam estas horo (*)
por=
> =20
> levi=F8i. Kaj mi diras al vi: "Mallaboremulo, elliti=F8u. Mi ne brilas
tial,=
>  ke=20
> vi povu resti en la lito dormante, sed ke vi povu levi=F8i kaj labori, ke
vi=
> =20
> legu kaj promenu."'"
>
> (*) "horo" instead of "tempo" -- in Esperanto, a defined time of day
is=20
> usually rendered by "horo" (hour) instead of "tempo", which generally=20
> refers to a duration or period.
>
> If you are familiar with the Esperanto hymn, Zamenhof's poem "La
Espero",=20
> you may also want to take a look at a somewhat "intercontinentalized"=20
> version, "La Tojvo", at:
>
> http://www.forst.uni-muenchen.de/~refo/poezio/tojvo.html
>
>
> -- Don HARLOW
> http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
> (English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)
>
> F. Tuglas, Mira=F8o, nun legeblas (Latin-3) =E6e
>    http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/miragxo.html
> a=FD Unikode =E6e
>    http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/miragxou.html
 
I have been trying to use this Excite address for the
AUXLANG list but am having problems. My apologies.
 
The last message I tried to sent got dumped.
 
Thanks and Best Regards                      LEO
 
Leo J. Moser
[log in to unmask]
 
 
 
 
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December 2000, Week 5
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