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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: How difficult is difficult?

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:15:45 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (358 lines)

> Kjell Rehnstr=F6m wrote:
> =
 
> > Such un method may work ma io think it is enormously boring and
> I am not sure
> > que it takes into consideration the fact that languages are different=
 
> and that
> > you cannot - even in so closely related languages as Swedish and
> English just
> > substitute one word for another.
> =
 
> It is a positive use of "relexing". Only if the phrase order matches
> between languages, can this be done. But in both OCC and IA, the noun
> phrase can usually match because of flexible adjective-noun order.
> Only OCC has much chance of matching English verb phrase order;
> but IA could match better with Italian I suppose.
> =
 
It is not as important as one would think. Swedish and English don't have=
 the
same word order. (Swedish is somewhere in between German and English).
 
> > So when Charles said he succeeded better with Occidental than
> with Interlingua
> > I believe him. Two things can have happened. The things he had
> learnt in
> > Interlingua helped him in Occidental. He had reached a threshold
> and suddenly
> > everything was much easier. Or he had found better teaching
> material.
> =
 
> Those are good guesses, but for me the important factor may have
> been the analytical verbs; or the endings. In IA I would get lost
> amidst all those words ending in -e being nouns, verbs, adjectives;
> while in OCC the frequent -t -r -i -s endings seem to "synchronize"
> the syntax, more like in Ido. In IA, my only clue to syntax (P-O-S)
> is "le" or a preposition.
> =
 
> Need some examples; below I mark the obvious Parts-Of-Speech,
> A=3Ddeterminer, N=3Dnoun, J=3Dadjective, V=3Dverb, D=3Dadverb/prepositi=
on,
> where recognizable by endings or as short words. (And to make it
> relex-able with English, just swap the adjectives with the nouns.)
> =
 
> Li  lingue  international  ne  besona esser  international. =
 
> AA  .....N  ...........JJ  DD  ...........V  ...........JJ
> =
 
> Li  paroles  international  deve esser  excludet  ex  li  Lingue  Inter=
national. =
 
> AA  .....NN  ...........JJ  .........V  .......V  DD  AA  .....N  .....=
=2E.....JJ
 
This is an interesting point. =
 
 
Personally I basically had 3 problems with Interlingua:
1. Sentences like "The teacher gave it to him." which goes  _Le instructo=
r le
lo dava_.
 
2. The interrogative and relative _qui_ meaning
_who_:
 
Interrogative: who =3D always _qui_.
Who lives there.
Qui habita ibi?
Qui vide tu? Whom do you se?
 
You could also, if I have understood everything right:
Quem vide tu?
Whom do you see?
 
But:
Qui te vide. Who sees you?
 
The relative qui goes like this:
I don't know whom you know.
Io non sape que tu cognosce.
 
I don't know who knows you.
Io non sape qui te cognosce.
 
And after a preposition:
I don't know whom you are talking to.
Io non sape con qui tu parla
 
 
I don't know what you are thinking of.
Io non sape de que tu pensa.
 
As with every language I have learnt I had to struggle with orthography. =
To
remember and accept end vowels of some words was difficult. =
 
 
If some of Interlingua's words and forms are sometimes hard to defend,
Occidental's are so the more, as I see it. =
 
 
Bob wrote:
> I didn't know Occidental when I started anymore than all the other hund=
reds and
> thousands who learned it in 1922 and on, without grammars and dictionar=
ies. They
> started out just like I did. Picked up a copy of the first Kosmoglott a=
nd began
> reading. That's a real eyeopener.
> =
 
Weren't the first adherents of Occidental dismounted Esperantists and Idi=
sts.
If they were thousends upon thousends I don't know.
 
> > It is easy if you teach a class,
> > because then you can see what reception you get and adjust to that, b=
ut if you
> > are writing something that will be used by people in very different s=
ituations
> > or with different background you have to be very methodical about the=
 whole
> > thing.
> =
 
> These early folks by the thousands who learned Occidental from all kind=
s of
> background had no classes, no grammars and no dictionaries. It took alm=
ost 5 years
> before any came on the scene. There was just the jurnale and actual usa=
ge.
> =
 
We have two different pictures there. I glanced through some Cosmoglottas=
, and
what I found was a rather restricted circle, a kind of auxlang on paper, =
and
they were on and on and on again ranting about the advantages of Occident=
al in
comparison to Ido and Esperanto instead of letting the language speak for=
 
itself. =
 
 
> > So when Charles said he succeeded better with Occidental than with In=
terlingua
> > I believe him. Two things can have happened. The things he had learnt=
 in
> > Interlingua helped him in Occidental.
> =
 
> Sounds good, but I doubt it, for none of the early people who learned O=
ccidental
> the same way had any ILa training, for in fact, Ila didn't even exist t=
hen.
>
They had learnt Esperanto and Ido and together with German, French and La=
tin
that they certainly had "school knowledge" of, helped them to very easily=
 
understand Occidental. Words like _pri_ and _ye_ are as I see it rather
Esperantisms, even if "pri" originally comes from Greek and _ye_ probably=
 is a
Russian word, even though one could find some "impressionist" linkage to
German _je_ (that is my scientifically unfounded hunch).
 
> > He had reached a threshold and suddenly
> > everything was much easier. Or he had found better teaching material.=
 
> =
 
> I think the answer is, he found Occidental. It has nothing to do with I=
la, or a
> threshold, etc. for if this were true, none of the early Occidentalists=
 could have
> learned Occidental.
> My experience was similar in that I found Occidental the easiest of the=
m all for
> me. And, it still is.
> One thing that must be kept in mind in describing what is and what isn'=
t needed
> for various peoples in learning is this.
> When Occidental began in 1922, there were Esperantists, Idoists, Novial=
ists,
> NsFists, Medianists, etc, etc, plus Spanish, German, Swedish, English, =
Russian,
> Tchec., Estonian, French, etc. etc. who read, understood, learned and u=
sed the
> language. Funny thing, none of them had a grammar or a dictionary to us=
e. =
 
But they were Estonian, French etc. Esperanto/Ido/LsF speakers I'd guess =
and
with the formation I suggested above.
 
>This flies in the face of the arguments that Occidental is difficult, et=
c.
used today.
 
I have no memory of having said that Occidental is difficult, ''cause it
isn't. Occidental is easy. I have said, and I can repeat that as many tim=
es as
Bob or anyone else wishes to hear it, that it has an unnecessary eclectic=
 
vocabulary, which I think it has. But this can - as Bob has said himself =
on
some occations - be mended. =
 
 
Everyone who thinks Occidental is easier than Interlingua should of cours=
e
learn Occidental. It may wery well be that there is something I have
overlooked that the Occidentalists did see, and if that furthers someone'=
s way
to the International language, so much the better. =
 
 
I would really encourage everybody to try to learn some auxiliary languag=
es
and then see which works the best. I think I shall take up the Occidental=
 
studies again. Next message will be in Occidental!
 
> And, this is why I and Charles could understand it right off the bat wh=
en looking
> at it seriously. Literally, no other IAL has ever been presented this w=
ay to the
> world, without grammar, vocabularies, etc. and become the force it did,=
 including
> ILa which bagan with a full blown dictionary and grammar.  Only one lan=
guage ever
> did this in the IAL field, and that was Occidental. This says volumes a=
bout the
> language. And, no attempt to excuse or explain away how easily Charles =
or I picked
> it up can deny the fact that only Occidental can and does do this. The =
language
> was designed to work this way and it does. Esperanto can't do it, Ido c=
an't do it, Ila can't do it, Glosa can't, and none of the others can do i=
t. Only Occidental,
> and it is the only one with a track record that speaks for itself in th=
is.
> =
 
This is not correct. My first incounters with Interlingua was just that I=
 read
texts in in and understood. It goes without saying that I had to have
dictionaries to be able to produce in the language myself. But this is no=
t
what we were talking about. I had no difficulty in understanding interlin=
gua,
both written and spoken, and I have heard both right in the beginning.
 
> To deny Occidental's ease of aprehension, in order to support ILa or an=
y other
> language that must be presented with a grammar and dictionary, is to de=
ny
> thousands of actual cases of learning and usage since 1922. Those thous=
ands of
> actual cases can't not be negated by one individual opinion of a modern=
 critic.
> The facts are otherwise. Occidental is the easiest for the most people.=
 It is not
> the easiest for some people. The facts stand on their own on this.
 
Occidental is easy. It is as easy to me as Interlingua. It is perhaps eas=
ier
than Interlingua. But to deny the fact that a lot of Occidentalists went =
over,
defected, changed for Interlingua is like putting your head in the sand a=
s if
you were an ostrich.
 
> >
> > It is very possible that when I was learning Interlingua and reading =
a lot of
> > material in Occidental as well, this contributed to my learning Inter=
lingua
> > faster. The fact that I did not practise writing occidental can accou=
nt for
> > the fact that I did not learn it.
> =
 
> Could be, for thousands of others did it quite easily without dictionar=
y and
> grammar. Remember, you learned ILa with a grammar and dictionary at han=
d. =
 
 
No, I learned it from reading Revista de Interlingua and writing to a fri=
end
in it. =
 
 
That is
> a different thing. Although I'm sure some can do it, how many do you th=
ink learn
> ILa without the lessons on the web, and the grammar and dictionaries to=
day. =
 
 
I have not the slightest idea. You can do it, provided that the texts you=
 are
reading are good and if you are interested in the contents.
 
>Then,
> compare that with the early Occidentalists who 100% learned without suc=
h tools.
> Today, many deceive themselves that their language is easier than Occ b=
ecause they
> have learned with tools that Occ does not need. But, put away the dicti=
onaries and
> grammars and ask people to learn your leanguages without them, then we'=
ll have a
> real and fair comparison of how Occidental is constructed differently t=
han the
> others, and how easily it is learned *without* such tools versus how ot=
her are
> learned *with* such tools. In reality, this is a magnitude of differenc=
e and
> speaks very well for Occidental.
 
They had already learnt the other international languages, used at that t=
ime.
 
What I liked with Interlingua and what also could be said about occidenta=
l is
that it doesn't matter how many persons can speak the languages. There ar=
e
anyway a lot of people who can understand them. I see this demonstrated t=
ime
after time where I am. =
 
 
So let's learn Occidental if we prefere it and Interlingua if that is mor=
e to
our liking.
 
Lass noi apprender occidental si to es lu que noi prefere e interlingua s=
i
isto es lo que nos prefere!
 
Lu plus important es que noi apprende lingues quels ne solo noi self comp=
rende.
 
Lo plus importante es que nos apprende linguas le quales non solo nos ips=
e
comprende. =
 
 
(I don't think I need to translate this!)

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May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
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July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
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September 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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