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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Interlingua - Asian

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:30:50 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (137 lines)

Don wrote:
 
> Je 01:02 ptm 11/9/99 -0500, vi skribis
>
> >Don wrote (replying to someone else (Leo Moser?):
> >
> > > From my point of view, in the long run it doesn't really matter to >=20
> > the ultimate user=3D20
> > > whether a single source language (e.g. English) contributes the
> > > vocabulary,
> > > or it is proportionally taken from all the languages of the world. >=20
> > There are other, more important factors to consider.
> >
> >That's your view, but I don't think it was Zamenhof's. If it had been,
> >Esperanto would have ended up on the interlinguistic junk heap
> >with Sol-re-sol. Apart from the "logical languages", which are
> >a different kettle of fish, there's long been general agreement
> >that a practical IAL will have a Romance bias, due to the character
> >of the most widely distributed international vocabulary. The
> >disgreement between semi-naturalists (like Esperantists) and ultra-
> >naturalists (like Interlinguists) is over the degree of this bias.
>
> Such agreement does seem to exist -- the question is, how valid is it.
 
I'll make my point more explicitly. For someone whose ideal IAL
has a vocabulary based 25% on Mandarin, 15% on Hindi, 8% on English,
7% on Spanish (you get the picture), Esperanto will seem bizarrely,
inexplicably biased toward the Romance languages. Its base vocabulary
must be, what, 70-80% Romance/Latin? Less than Interlingua's 90-95,
but still hugely biased.
 
What's the explanation? Franco-Italo-Hispano-philia? North Mediterranean racism?  A profound commitment to Roman Catholic
culture? No! Simply that a Romance/Latin vocabulary is the most
widely distributed within Western and Western-influenced cultures,
and, the world being what it is, an IAL project has it best chance
if it first takes root in Europe - the only modernised, highly
multilingual continent we've got.
 
That, I assume, was Zamenhof's reasoning. Otherwise, he's got
a lot of explaining to do. The naturalistic school pushed that
reasoning a little further. I think Andre Martinet put it well
in his review of Interlingua. Basically, the bulk of the most
widely distributed international vocabulary is Romance and
Latinate. In most cases, though, this vocabulary is closer to
the vernacular stratum in the Romance languages than in, say,
German or Russian, where it's largely learned vocabulary.
 
This is an important point, because it means that, if you
choose your "other" vocabulary (function words + words without
strong international forms) from the Romance language, you'll
have something that even a moderately educated Romance
speaker will find useful even at first sight, whereas,
if you filled out the vocabulary with Germanic or Slavic words,
the resulting mix would still accessible only educated Germans
or Russians.
 
So the ultra-Romance strategy creates a language that
has *some* immediate use, before a large user community
has been established. It's a way of getting the
ball rolling. That's Martinet's reasoning.
 
Now, Esperantists tend to say that, beyond the basic
selection of roots, other factors should precedence, and
they believe that Zamenhof struck the right balance between
simplicity, familiarity (to Europeans), expressiveness,
and clarity. Obviously they don't feel the prime-vista
strategy has enough going for it. (However, they should
recognise it for what it is, and not recklessly throw around
epithets like 'racist' .) But all this is a matter of
judgement. Esperanto's success relative to Occ, Ia etc. is impressive, but only to a point. Being mired in the Sargasso
Sea is more impressive than being shipwrecked in the Azores,
but it still doesn't make you Columbus.
 
>As I=
> =20
> remember, Interlingua used English as one of the languages on which it=20
> based its widely distributed international vocabulary. The results may be=20
> seen in the example we've been quoting, from which I've extracted words=20
> (and a few simple expressions) for purposes of comparison. Here's the list.=
> =20
> My question is: for the speaker of English, which of the two comparison=20
> languages has the more "international" (in the sense of being congruent=20
> with English, and so comprehensible) vocabulary?
>
> ENGLISH         INTERLINGUA             INTERCONTINENTAL
>
> the sun         le sol                  mata-hari
> say(s)/tell(s)  dice                    yu
 
[snip]
 
> sleep                   dormir                  nemuru
> but                     sed                     sed
> work                    labora                  suru kam(?)
> read                    lege                    yomu
> walk                    promena         aruku
>
> Answer is, of course, six of one ... half dozen of the other.
 
I wouldn't say that. I'd say that, where the intercontinental and
the interlingua differ, the interlingua is either more comprehensible (to an anglophone) than the intercontinental, or both are
equally incomprehensible. In no case is the intercontinental
more comprehensible than the intercomprehensible.
 
> Obviously, this particular passage (chosen by Gode) doesn't address the=20
> very real advantages of the truly international part of Interlingua's=20
> vocabulary. The problem is that, at least in English (and, in my limited=20
> experience, in other languages as well), very few real passages would.
 
As I've said before, the issue of comprehensibilty to Anglophones
is a red herring. To make it the centre of the prime-vista issue
is crazy. For one thing, the majority of Anglophones (and this
is true of Canadians and Brits, not just Americans) are perfectly
happy to have everyone else speak English. Easy or hard, prime-vista
or Volapuk, they won't learn an IAL.
 
Romanophone comprehensibility is where it's at.
 
> (*) Interesting to notice that for his sample of "intercontinental"=20
> Interlingua Gode took the trouble to smooth out the idiosyncrasies that the=
> =20
> Interlingua pronoun system inherited from its sources. The pronouns=20
> completely eschew both the regular agglutinated -N ending of Esperanto and=
> =20
> the irregularly inflected accusatives of Interlingua; and the regular=20
> ending -ti, when affixed to the Chinese pronouns, replaces the inflected=20
> possessives of Interlingua and seems to play the same role as the Esperanto=
> =20
> ending -A and the Chinese particle "de".
 
Yes, he did make some simplifications for intercontinental. That
should tell you something about his motivation for putting
Romanicisms in Interlingua.
 
Cheers,
Chris

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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
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October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
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