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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Interlingua - Asian

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:34:11 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (99 lines)

Leo Moser wrote:
 
> On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:15:06 -0500, Chris Burd wrote:
>
> > > "Leo J. Moser" wrote:
> > > [snippet]
> > > > > I'll make my point more explicitly. For someone whose ideal IAL
> > > > > has a vocabulary based 25% on Mandarin, 15% on Hindi, 8% on
> English,
> > > > > 7% on Spanish (you get the picture),
>
> NOTE: The prior quote was not from me.  Leo Moser
 
No, that quote was from ME. Let me make it clear that the
"someone" referred to is a hypothetical person. I myself
don't think a "quota" IAL has any practical application.
(IMO, any applications Lojban may have arise from
its interesting structure, not from its word-creation
algorithm, which I see as a peripheral feature. For
Euroclones, however, the word-selection mechanism
is central.) However, the idea of a "quota" IAL
is a familiar one; I raised it just as a straw man
to make my own point about the similarity of Esperanto
and the other Euroclones.
 
> My approach does NOT involve quotas to be filled
> (nor do I accept any of the specific percentages
> given).
 
Neither do I. I just made them up.
 
> The next quote WAS from me.   Leo Moser
>
> > > > This might be an ideal, but not one easily attained,
> > > > especially for Mandarin. This does not IMO mean, however,
> > > > that a properly devised program cannot do better (in
> > > > terms of internationally recognizable forms) than the
> > > > various project of a hundred to 50 years back (Volapuk
> > > > to Novial to Interlingue)
> >
> > The problem is, the sort of recognition that's attainable for
> > a project like this is very, very attenuated.
>
> No, not really. But the matter is one of what tactics
> are to be used in selection. The "Mata-hari" quote is
> rather random and takes, for example, IMO, a rather
> disproportionate number of words from Japanese, which
> is not a language much borrowed from (except for a
> few 'culture words' like "samarai" or "ninja.")
 
If you're looking for words that are wide-spread
internationally, then Japanese will contribute, as you say,
'samurai', 'sushi',, etc.; Mandarin will contribute 'feng shui'
and 'qi' and a few others. The thing is, "wide-spread" seems
often to mean "adopted by the Western languages", in which
case most of the Euroclones will capture them too. Once "feng
shui" penetrates a sufficient number of Ia's source languages,
it's ipso facto part of Ia. And it will probably end up in
Esperanto, too, by less formal means.
 
A question worth asking is, what major flows of vocabulary
exist outside the ambit of the Western languages? I can think
of two: (1) the diffusion of Chinese into Japanese, Korean and
other languages that were historically in the Chinese cultural
sphere; (2) the diffusion of Arabic throughout the Muslim world.
I can't think of anything else that would be at all comparable to
the radiation of Latin, Romance, and Greco-Latin vocabulary
within and from the West. I think we agree that the Chinese
radiation isn't very easy to capture phonetically, which is
why some of us have been speculating about an East Asian
script-based IAL.
 
I suppose that, within Europe, one could pay more attention
to the Germanic linguistic exports into the Slavic languages.
But other than that and Arabic, the existing Euroclones capture
a lot of what is in fact international.
 
 
> The Lojban approach and the "percentage quote" above
> try to set quotas -- and act as if they might well be
> filled almost randomly.
>
> > I mean, do you
> > really think that Lojban would be significantly less successful with
> > a completely apriori vocabulary?
> > Cheers,         Chris
>
> No, I don't think it would. Any degree of "memory
> hooks" will help some.
 
I think they could have done as well with a mildly (repeat,
*mildly*) "philosophic" approach - something on the lines
of having all animal names taking the form cvLcA = _bulta_
'dog', _silga_ 'cat', _folma_ 'rat' and so on.
 
Cheers,
 
Chris

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