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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Interlingua - Asian

From:

"Leo J. Moser" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:13:57 PST

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

On         Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:34:11 -0500, Chris Burd wrote:
 
> Leo Moser wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:15:06 -0500, Chris Burd wrote:
> >
> > > > "Leo J. Moser" wrote:
> > > > [snippet]
> > > > > > I'll make my point more explicitly. For someone whose ideal IAL
> > > > > > has a vocabulary based 25% on Mandarin, 15% on Hindi, 8% on
> > English,
> > > > > > 7% on Spanish (you get the picture),
> >
> > NOTE: The prior quote was not from me.  Leo Moser
>
> No, that quote was from ME. Let me make it clear that the
> "someone" referred to is a hypothetical person.
 
I rather guessed that.
 
> I myself
> don't think a "quota" IAL has any practical application.
 
Good to hear. Only in the most marginal way would I
support such an approach. For example, knowing Chinese
to be underrepresented, I might give the benefit of
the doubt to using a Chinese form that seemed appropriate
and available. Or I might choose the exact form that a
word like 'chocolate' might take by considering the
Mandarin (in which it does exist).
 
> (IMO, any applications Lojban may have arise from
> its interesting structure, not from its word-creation
> algorithm, which I see as a peripheral feature.
 
Yes, I agree. I see my criticisms of Lojban as
trivial in terms of what Lojban is.
 
> For
> Euroclones, however, the word-selection mechanism
> is central.)
 
Not just for Euroclones.
 
> However, the idea of a "quota" IAL
> is a familiar one; I raised it just as a straw man
> to make my own point about the similarity of Esperanto
> and the other Euroclones.
 
> > My approach does NOT involve quotas to be filled
> > (nor do I accept any of the specific percentages
> > given).
>
> Neither do I. I just made them up.
 
Good, I wondered.
 
> > The next quote WAS from me.   Leo Moser
> >
> > > > > This might be an ideal, but not one easily attained,
> > > > > especially for Mandarin. This does not IMO mean, however,
> > > > > that a properly devised program cannot do better (in
> > > > > terms of internationally recognizable forms) than the
> > > > > various project of a hundred to 50 years back (Volapuk
> > > > > to Novial to Interlingue)
> > >
> > > The problem is, the sort of recognition that's attainable for
> > > a project like this is very, very attenuated.
 
NOTE: But the just prior comment was NOT from me.
The next was.             ...LEO
 
> > No, not really. But the matter is one of what tactics
> > are to be used in selection. The "Mata-hari" quote is
> > rather random and takes, for example, IMO, a rather
> > disproportionate number of words from Japanese, which
> > is not a language much borrowed from (except for a
> > few 'culture words' like "samarai" or "ninja.")
>
> If you're looking for words that are wide-spread
> internationally, then Japanese will contribute, as you say,
> 'samurai', 'sushi',, etc.; Mandarin will contribute 'feng shui'
> and 'qi' and a few others. The thing is, "wide-spread" seems
> often to mean "adopted by the Western languages", in which
> case most of the Euroclones will capture them too. Once "feng
> shui" penetrates a sufficient number of Ia's source languages,
> it's ipso facto part of Ia. And it will probably end up in
> Esperanto, too, by less formal means.
 
Yes but some will be more general, like tofu/doufu for
bean-curd.
 
> A question worth asking is, what major flows of vocabulary
> exist outside the ambit of the Western languages? I can think
> of two: (1) the diffusion of Chinese into Japanese, Korean and
> other languages that were historically in the Chinese cultural
> sphere; (2) the diffusion of Arabic throughout the Muslim world.
> I can't think of anything else that would be at all comparable to
> the radiation of Latin, Romance, and Greco-Latin vocabulary
> within and from the West. I think we agree that the Chinese
> radiation isn't very easy to capture phonetically, which is
> why some of us have been speculating about an East Asian
> script-based IAL.
 
I did a long essay on this issue -- put on Auxlang. Quite a
series of 'distributions' mentioned. What called the "Wensa
distribution" I still see referred to in postings here.
>
> I suppose that, within Europe, one could pay more attention
> to the Germanic linguistic exports into the Slavic languages.
> But other than that and Arabic, the existing Euroclones capture
> a lot of what is in fact international.
>
> > The Lojban approach and the "percentage quote" above
> > try to set quotas -- and act as if they might well be
> > filled almost randomly.
> >
> > > I mean, do you
> > > really think that Lojban would be significantly less successful with
> > > a completely apriori vocabulary?
> > > Cheers,         Chris
> >
> > No, I don't think it would. Any degree of "memory
> > hooks" will help some.
>
> I think they could have done as well with a mildly (repeat,
> *mildly*) "philosophic" approach - something on the lines
> of having all animal names taking the form cvLcA = _bulta_
> 'dog', _silga_ 'cat', _folma_ 'rat' and so on.
> Cheers,  Chris
 
Yes, perhaps. But it's their call.
 
Beat regards,
 
Leo J. Moser
[log in to unmask]
 
 
 
 
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