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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 1999, Week 3

CONLANG November 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: V2

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 14 Nov 1999 07:39:32 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

At 8:05 pm -0200 13/11/99, Daniel Calegari wrote:
>> >     [ John ]  GAVE  [ the book ]  [ to Daniel ]  [ yesterday ]
>> >     [ the book ]  GAVE  [ John ]  [ to Daniel ]  [ yesterday ]
>> >     [ to Daniel ]  GAVE  [ John ]  [ the book ]  [ yesterday ]
>> >     [ yesterday ]  GAVE  [ John ]  [ the book ]  [ to Daniel ]
>> >
>
>
>Sorry.
>Are English a V2 language?

No.  The examples above show how the sentences might appear if English were
just such a language.   The 2nd, 3rd & 4th version would _not_ occur in
modern English.

>I thing it is, of course the normal order is SVO, is it?

You are quite correct.  Instances of the older V2 pattern of Old English
are confined to set expressions.  For example 'never' can trigger a "V2
inversion", e.g.
Never have seen such a mess!

But such sentences have an archaic feel about them.  Adverbs of time do not
generally do this.  *'Yesterday gave I Daniel the book' simply does not
occur and would be considered to be "bad" English or the imitation of some
rustic dialect (I know of no such actual dialect).

If we want to front 'yesterday', then the verb moves along to the 3rd
position, thus:
'Yesterday I gave Daniel a book.'

We can even have things like:
'Yesterday in the park we met this strange alien'.
- where the verb has slipped along to the 4th position after an adverb of
time, an averbial phrase of place and after the subject.

Thus modern English is, as you rightly say, essentially a SVO language, not
a V2 language.

>I read the Greensberg's Universals of Language

Read with caution.  Greenberg's source data consists IIRC of only some 30
to 40 natlangs.   This is a _VERY_ small proportion of the natlangs that
have existed since humans began speaking & still exist.  Exceptions have
been found to all his 'Universals', I believe.  At best these 'Universals'
show tendencies - they are certainly not "rules".

and also German language has
>some V2 constructions.

German is a V2 language, as are all the Germanic languages with the
exception of English.

In the Germanic languages the order in main clauses & co-ordinate main
clauses (subordinate clauses have verb final word order):

Topic + verb + rest of the comment [verb being the first part of the comment]

Note: 'Topic' is often called 'theme', and 'comment' called the 'rheme'.

Often the topic (or theme) coincides with the grammatical subject, so the
order appears to be SVO.  But if some other part of the sentence is fronted
as the topic, then the grammatical subject _must_ follow the verb, since
the finite verb must remain as 2nd element (or 'idea') in the sentence, e.g.

Zum Geburtstag HAT sie ihm ein Buch geschenkt.
For his birthday she has given him a book.

Ein Buch HAT sie ihm zum Geburtstag geschenkt.
She has given him _a book_ for his birthday.

Geschenkt HAT sie ihm zum Geburtstag ein Buch.
She has _given_ him a book for his birthday.

>Or are you are talking about strict V2 order?

Yes, see above.

>Are there some language too strict ?

A subjective value - I guess to those of us that don't speak V2 languages,
such insistance on V2 position might seem too strict.  But if you're
brought up with such a language, it will seem the 'normal' thing to do.

Welsh, like the Gaelic langs, is basically a VSO language.  But if we want
to focus any part of the sentence, then that part is fronted and the verb
falls into second place.

Note: the focus is that part of the comment or rheme that actually adds new
information.

For example, a 'unmarked' sentence with no particular focus is:
Prynodd fy nhad    y teledu lliw  yna.
Bought   my father the  TV   color there =
My father bought that color TV.

But in answer to the question 'Who bought that color TV?' we'd have:
Fy nhad (a) brynodd y teledu lliw yna.

'fy nhad' (my father) gets fronted and is joined to the rest of the
sentence with the particle 'a' which causes 'soft mutation' (e.g. prynodd
--> brynodd) and is usually omitted in speech - tho the mutation remains.

'When did your father buy that color TV?'
Ddoe (y) prynodd fy nhad y teledu lliw yna.
Yesterday my father ..........

The fronted (and focused) adverb is joined to the rest of the sentence by
'y' which does not cause mutation, but like 'a' it is usually omitted in
speech.

By using 'to do' as an auxiliary finite verb, the verb itself can be
fronted, thus:
Prynu'r teledu lliw yna (a) wnaeth fy nhad.
Buying the TV color there   did    my father.

(Note: the definite article in full is "yr" /@r/ which may also appear as
"y" ot "'r")

Thus in Welsh, if fronting takes place, then the sentence must be V2; but
such fronting, tho by no means uncommon, takes place only for focus.
Modern Breton, however, has entirely abandoned the older Celtic VSO
position and made the V2 position normal.  However, unlike the Germanic
languages which front the topic, Breton seems in 'marked' sentences to
front the focus as Welsh does; the unmarked sentences are just SVO.

If you want to follow this up, have a look in the Conlang archives; there
was quite a long thread on this not so long ago.

Ray.




=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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