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CONLANG  November 1999, Week 3

CONLANG November 1999, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Commentary: From Tokana to Denden (LONG)

From:

Matt Pearson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:24:19 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (260 lines)

I wrote:

>> I must not have provided nearly enough info, because you seem to have
>> parsed these sentences incorrectly.  The correct structure is:

And Boudewijn Rempt replied:

>Well, what made me go wrong was the bit in the notes:
>
> So "itan maha olat" in the above poem can only mean "that which
> one hears". It can't mean "that which hears things".
>
>So I took that for the relative clause, and tried to connect the
>dative 'suhoi' and 'sihe' and so on to the verb.

To which I reply:

Clumsy me.  I should have spelled out what I meant in more detail.
Perhaps if I'd phrased it this way:  <quote> "Itan maha olat..." can
only mean "That which is heard...".  It can't mean "That which
hears...".  <end quote>

Then again, maybe that isn't all that much clearer (see below).

I wrote:

>>         [ itan maha olat suhoi ]  uthma tsampatin
>>         [ that which (one) hears in-the-wind ]  gives health
>>
>>         [ itan maha olat sihe ]  uthma pamihati
>>         [ that which (one) hears in-the-stream ]  gives nourishment
>>
>> So SUHOI and SIHE are part of the relative clause.
>> The ending -AT on OLAT indicates that this verb is part of an embedded
>> clause (here, a relative clause headed by MAHA "what").  The ending -A on
>> UTHMA, by contrast, indicates that this verb is in the main clause.

And Boudewijn replied:

>Well, I'd really like to see a thorough syntactic analysis of this
>constructions - it's still not entirely clear to me.

OK, you asked for it!  Let's begin with the basics:

(1)  Noun phrases in Tokana are inflected for case.  The absolutive and
ergative
(or nominative) cases are unmarked, while the remaining cases (dative,
instrumental, ablative, and comitative) are marked by suffixes on the noun.

(2)  Definite noun phrases are preceded by a determiner which 'agrees' in case
with the noun (like in German).  When the noun phrase in question is an
argument
of the verb and appears right-adjacent to the verb, then the determiner
attaches
to the verb as a suffix (cf. "-n" and "-na" in (3) below).

(3)  In main clauses, unmarked order is SVO or OVS:

        Na          moiha   kahta-n         mikal
        the.ERG   girl      hit-the.ABS   boy
        "The girl hits the boy"

        Ne           mikal   kahta-na       moiha
        the.ABS   boy      hit-the.ERG   girl
        "The girl hits the boy"

The OVS (or 'inverse') sentence is often given a passive-type reading: "The boy
is hit by the girl".

(4)  Transitive sentences like the ones in (3) contain an ergative subject and
an absolutive object.  Either of these arguments may be deleted if its referent
is unknown or irrelevant.  When the absolutive object is deleted, a special
'antipassive' prefix "u-" must be added to the verb.  The word order is SV:

        Na           moiha   u-kahta
        the.ERG   girl     ANTIPASS-hit
        "The girl hits [things]"
        "The girl is a hitter"

The ergative subject, on the other hand, can be deleted freely, without the
need for a special marker on the verb.  When the subject is absent, the word
order is OV:

        Ne          mikal   kahta
        the.ABS   boy    hit
        "The boy is hit"
        "[Someone] hits the boy"

(5)  In embedded clauses, the word order is typically VSO (VOS is also
possible, but less frequent).  In order to indicate that the clause is
embedded,
one of a special set of 'dependent order' suffixes is added to the verb.  This
suffix appears after the verb stem and before the suffixed determiner (if any):

        ...   kahta-n-na           moiha   ne          mikal
        ...   hit-DEP-the.ERG   girl      the.ABS   boy
        ...   "that the girl hits the boy"

For example:

        Ikime      iona     kahta-n-na           moiha   ne         mikal
        we.DAT   know   hit-DEP-the.ERG   girl     the.ABS   boy
        "We know that the girl hits the boy"

(6)  Just as in main clauses, embedded clause arguments may be freely
deleted if their referents are unknown or irrelevant.  As in main clauses,
deletion of the absolutive object is accompanied by the prefixing of "u-"
to the verb, while deletion of the ergative subject requires no verb
marking.  The word order is VS or VO:

        Ikime       iona    u-kahta-n-na                         moiha
        we.DAT   know   ANTIPASS-hit-DEP-the.ERG   girl
        "We know that the girl hits [things]"

        Ikime      iona     kahta-n-ne           mikal
        we.DAT   know   hit-DEP-the.ABS   boy
        "We know that [someone] hits the boy"
        "We know that the boy is hit"

(7)  Relative clauses are formed using dependent suffixes on the verb
as well.  In relative clauses, one of the arguments (viz. the one
corresponding to the head of the relative clause) is obligatorily absent.
Relative clauses always follow the noun they modify, just like in English:

        moiha   [ kahta-n-ne          mikal ]
        girl         hit-DEP-the.ABS   boy
        "a girl who hits the boy"

Here, the relative clause "kahtanne mikal" modifies "moiha".  Notice
that the argument inside the relative clause is marked with absolutive
case.  Thus, we know that it is being interpreted as a direct object,
which means that the missing argument must be the subject.  This is
how we know that the girl is the one who is doing the hitting.

        mikal   [ kahta-n-na          moiha ]
        boy        hit-DEP-the.ERG   girl
        "a boy whom the girl hits"
        "a boy who is hit by the girl"

Here, the relative clause "kahtanna moiha" modifies "mikal".  Notice
that the argument inside the relative clause is marked with ergative
case, and is therefore the subject of the verb "hit".  This is how we
know that the boy is the one being hit.

(8)  In relative clauses, just as in other kinds of embedded clauses,
it is possible to delete an argument whose referent is unknown or
irrelevant.  As before, a deleted absolutive is marked by the prefix
"u-", while a deleted ergative is unmarked:

        moiha   [ u-kahta-t ]
        girl         ANTIPASS-hit-DEP
        "a girl who hits [things]"
        "a girl who is a hitter"

(Notice that we have "-t" instead of "-n" as the dependent suffix in
this case.  "-t" and "-n" are just phonological variants of the same
suffix.)

        mikal   [ kahta-t ]
        boy        hit-DEP
        "a boy who is hit"

Notice that in both expressions, "moiha ukahtat" and "mikal kahtat",
there is no subject or object after the verb.  In other words, these
relative clauses contain 2 gaps.  Because the verb is prefixed with "u-"
in the first case, we know that the verb denotes an action directed at
an unknown/irrelevant object; therefore the noun being modified by
the relative clause ("girl") must correspond to the subject of the verb.

In the second case ("mikal kahtat") there is no "u-" prefix on the verb.
Therefore we know that the direct object is NOT unknown/irrelevant.
Therefore, it must be the SUBJECT which is unknown/irrelevant, while
the missing object corresponds to the head of the relative clause ("boy").

(9)  It is also possible to form what are called 'free relative' construc-
tions, equivalent to the following:

        the one who hits the boy
        s/he who hits the boy

        the thing which the girl hits
        that which is hit by the girl
        what the girl hits

These are formed using a series of interrogative/indefinite
quantifiers roughly equivalent to "wh-" words in English:

        mioh    "who, someone"
        mah     "what, something"
        melh    "where, somewhere"
        ima     "when, sometime"   etc.

If a determiner is added to these, they become definite expressions:

        ne mioh "the one who...", "s/he who..."
        te mah  "the thing which...", "that which..."
        te melh "the place where..."
        te ima  "the time when..."

These are literally "the who", "the what", "the where", and "the
when".  (Note that "ne" is the unmarked determiner used with
animates, while "te" is the unmarked determiner for inanimates.)

Putting the determiner + interrogative together with an embedded
relative clause gets us the following:

        ne mioh   [ kahta-n-ne           mikal ]
        the who     hit-DEP-the.ABS   boy
        "the one who hits the boy"
        "s/he who hits the boy"

        ne mioh   [ u-kahta-t  ]
        the who     ANTIPASS-hit-DEP
        "the one who hits [things]"

        ne mioh   [ kahta-n-na         moiha ]
        the who     hit-DEP-the.ERG  girl
        "the one who is hit by the girl"

        ne mioh   [ kahta-t   ]
        the who     hit-DEP
        "the one who is hit [by someone]"

Whew!!!!

So, the subject noun phrase in the Tokana poem has the same form as
this last example:

        te mah      [ ola-t         suhoi        ]
        the what     hear-DEP   wind.DAT
        "the thing which is heard [by someone] in the wind"
        "that which is heard in the wind"

Now, to put this phrase inside the larger sentence:

The verb phrase is:

        uthma   tsampatin
        give      body-balance
        "gives balance to the body"

Since the word order is SVO, the noun phrase "te mah olat suhoi" will
precede the verb.  One final wrinkle:  Since this expression is the
subject of the sentence, it must appear in the appropriate case.  When
a subject is animate, the ergative case is normally used (as in
the sentences about the girl hitting the boy).  However, "te mah olat
suhoi" is inanimate, and inanimate subjects must appear in the
instrumental case.  Thus, the proper form will be "itan maha olat
suhoi" (where "itan" is the instrumental form of the inanimate
determiner "te", and "-a" is the instrumental noun suffix):

[ Itan         maha          [ ola-t         suhoi        ] ]   uthma
tsampatin
   the.INST what.INST     hear-DEP  wind.DAT        give      body-balance
"That which is heard in the wind gives balance to the body"

Is that clear at last?  I hope so...

Matt.

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March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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