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AUXLANG  December 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG December 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Esperanto's Slavic base (was more mudslinging)

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:19:42 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

Je 3 dec 99, je 14:08, maf skribis:
 
> Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>
> > I think we can take Charles's comments about Esperanto with at least a
> > grain of salt. His comment, for instance, on the "great resemblance"
> > between Esperanto and Polish (Bialystok dialect or any other -- though in
> > Zamenhof's time, the major languages in Bialystok were Yiddish and Russian;
> > Polish was a minority tongue) shows a profound (though, let us hope, not
> > abiding) ignorance of (a) Esperanto, or (b) Polish, or (c) some combination
> > thereof.
>
> Okay, first I've only been in Bialystok (pronounced Bjawistok using Eo alphabet
> with w instead of u-breve) once for less than a day but I can say that in a lot of
> ways it _still_ doesn't a very Polish city. I kept having the feeling of a Polish
> city being planted on top of something else (Russian or Belarussian I suppose, very
> little Yiddishness left there unlike some Polish cities).
>
Quite true. Prior to the 1940s, Bialystok was in fact at least half
Jewish in population. But for some reason, early in the 1940s the
Jewish population ... left. The lack of a Jewish substratum in
Bialystok today has been commented on elsewhere. I don't think
anybody needs to be told the reasons why it disappeared.
 
> Second, to me, Eo _definitely_ seems like simplified re-lexified Slavic (not saying
> that's necessarily bad). I've read Eo things be authors whose first language isn't
> Slavic and it _still_ seems really Slavic to me. I think some of the reasons for
> this might be (in no special order).
>
Piron has pointed out elsewhere that Esperanto's _syntax_ is very
heavily based on the _Russian_ (not Polish) syntax. As far as your
specific points are concerned...
 
> a) dependence on a case system and milking the case system for all it's worth (ie
> using different cases for different meanings in different contexts)
 
All this based on the -N ending???
 
> b) the co-flation (right word?) of nouns and adjectives in a way that makes the
> sequence noun + adj. seem very much like two co-indexed nouns.
 
??? If I understand this correctly, this is generally done in
Esperanto by combining two nouns in apposition, often with a '-'
separating them. Could you give an example of what you're talking
about?
 
> c) general lack of sequence of tenses (I think this is a _very_ good thing, don't
> get me wrong)
 
Kjell has also attributed this to the Polish influence. My own feeling
is that this is a more logical method than we usually see in
Western Europe, and could easily have been created by Z (who,
like me, may have been bitten by the more traditional sequence of
tenses in his Latin class) independently; the similarity could be
coincidental. Or it could be due to Polish influence.
 
> d) correalatives (closer to Polish in semantics and construction than the equivalents in any other language I know)
 
Possible, and interesting if true. Could you give a Polish equivalent
of the correlative table? I'd like to add it to the Russian and Greek
equivalents that Waringhien quotes as being structurally similar.
 
> e) general noun dominance (the relative importance of verbs and nouns varies from
> language to language and Eo, like Slavic, seems to give nouns about as much weight
> as is possible in a language. I should also point out that there is a very slow
> long term process going on in Slavic languages where personal inflection is being
> lost in verbs (and in Polish comic books, an "uncivilized" character will use verb
> infinitives with no tense but the nominal case system is intact)
 
??? Actually, Esperanto is structurally (particularly in the word-
formation system) more favorable to verbs than to nouns; hence we
see such modern tendencies as using *"brosilo" instead of "broso"
or *"telefonilo" instead of "telefono", treating the root as an action
root instead of an object root (which it officially is). (*) It's also the
only language I'm familiar with (though there are certainly others) in
which a sentence can consist only of a verb plus occasional
modifiers ("Tondras!").
 
The comic-book grammar you indicate is neither particularly Polish
nor particularly new. Julio Baghy, if I remember correctly, more
than once used precisely the same system in the speech of
characters speaking a pidgin Esperanto back in the 1920s ("Ling
veni kurson, lerni lingvon"). In English, of course, the infinitive being
a more complex structure, such "pidgin" speech is often shown by
simply using the stem of the verb for all persons or (for "to be")
selecting one form and using it for all persons ("He am crazy -- he
get married!").
 
> f) tendency to use nominals to refer to people, the -ul- suffix seems so Polish to
> me (Even though there' no clear equivalent, the general tendency in Polish is to
> use nouns to describe people instead of adjectives or verbs, saying in effect
> "Maria is a (noun)" instead of "Maria is (adjective)."
>
??? The tendency in Esperanto is to say "Maria estas ric^a", not
"Maria estas ric^ulo". The -ul- suffix is generally used when we
want to show an actor or actee, not when we want to show an
attribute; you'd use it pretty much where you would use "a rich
man" in English. Here, of course, there is some difference in the
plural -- "ric^uloj" would be used as an equivalent to "the rich",
though "la ric^aj" is also acceptable.
 
> Example
> English
> Meiling is American (adj.)
> John's crazy. (Adj.)
>
The English version would, in fact, be "Meiling is an American", at
least in my dialect. Nobody out here ever says "She's American".
The word "American" as an adjective is primarily used as an
epithet.
 
> Polish
> Meiling jest Amerykanka. (noun)
> John jest wariatem (noun, lit. crazy person)
>
> Esperanto
> Meiling estas usonanino. (noun)
> John estas frenezulicho. (noun, crazy person)
>
See comments on English, above, for first sentence. For the
second (ignoring the totally non-standard suffix -ich-), "John estas
freneza" would be considerably more commonly used than "John
estas frenezulo", though the latter is certainly legitimate (as is
"John is a madman" in English).
 
---
 
(*) I blame this tendency on the fact that with an action root it's
easy to show a single action but with an object root used as a
verb, it isn't. I believe (but am not sure) that Ido addresses this
failing with the suffix -ag-, which Esperanto could also do, using the
root ag' as a suffix (after all, Esperanto had it first!) -- not an
uncommon way of handling such things -- but in many cases it
apparently seems easier to mishandle an object root as an action
root.
 
---
 
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html

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