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AUXLANG  December 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG December 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Esperanto's Slavic base (was more mudslinging)

From:

maf <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:17:55 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (201 lines)

 First: I've found very little time to spend at a computer the last week or so. As a result, this is later than I would
like (and not as complete)
Part of my perception of Eo as a simplification and relexification of Slavic (mostly Polish and Russian) might well be
that a number of the things (but by no means all) I've read have been translations from Polish or written by
Slavic-speaking (not necessarily Polish or Russian) authors. I've read two of the three volumes of Kabe's translation of
Prus's Faraon (La Faraono - not very good, I'm not sure if it's Kabe's or Prus's fault).
I don't think it's only that, but I'm open to the possibility that it might be. I'd be interested in what other folks who
learned a slavic language or two (not as a first language) and then learned Eo (I'd looked at Eo a little, but certainly
didn't get far until well after I'd learned Polish).
 
 
Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
 
> Je 3 dec 99, je 14:08, maf skribis:
>
> > Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
> >
> > > I think we can take Charles's comments about Esperanto with at least a
> > > grain of salt. His comment, for instance, on the "great resemblance"
> > > between Esperanto and Polish (Bialystok dialect or any other -- though in
> > > Zamenhof's time, the major languages in Bialystok were Yiddish and Russian;
> > > Polish was a minority tongue) shows a profound (though, let us hope, not
> > > abiding) ignorance of (a) Esperanto, or (b) Polish, or (c) some combination
> > > thereof.
> >
> > Okay, first I've only been in Bialystok (pronounced Bjawistok using Eo alphabet
> > with w instead of u-breve) once for less than a day but I can say that in a lot of
> > ways it _still_ doesn't a very Polish city. I kept having the feeling of a Polish
> > city being planted on top of something else (Russian or Belarussian I suppose, very
> > little Yiddishness left there unlike some Polish cities).
> >
> Quite true. Prior to the 1940s, Bialystok was in fact at least half
> Jewish in population. But for some reason, early in the 1940s the
> Jewish population ... left. The lack of a Jewish substratum in
> Bialystok today has been commented on elsewhere. I don't think
> anybody needs to be told the reasons why it disappeared.
 
...yes, we know they were put into camps and killed by the Occidental movement.
 
I think you're reading more into what I wrote than I wrote (or else I wrote it spectactularly badly, which is of course
entirely possible).
I meant: Most if not all of the popular American stereotypes of Jewishness (New York variety) could be equally applied to
(urban) Polish people (hardly surprising since most American Jewish people trace their pre-North American history to
Central and/or Eastern Europe.
Warsaw and Krakow, in some places,  still have a Jewish (as in popular, not necessarily negative, american stereotypes)
feel to them even though they have either very small (Krakow) or mostly foreign (Warsaw) Jewish communities. But you can
still get the same feeling in many cities that have no Jewish population (after they were exterminated by the Occidental
movement). Bialystok doesn't at all. That's what I meant. (it's sort of saying the same thing as the current
Polish-speaking population is/was apparently only _recently_ urban.
 
 
 
> > Second, to me, Eo _definitely_ seems like simplified re-lexified Slavic (not saying
> > that's necessarily bad). I've read Eo things be authors whose first language isn't
> > Slavic and it _still_ seems really Slavic to me. I think some of the reasons for
> > this might be (in no special order).
> >
> Piron has pointed out elsewhere that Esperanto's _syntax_ is very
> heavily based on the _Russian_ (not Polish) syntax. As far as your
> specific points are concerned...
 
Russian and Polish are _very_ similar syntactically (closer than Eo and Ido). And I believe I've read (can't find the
source just now) that Zhof himself claimed that in adulthood he was more dominant in Polish than Russian even though he
learned Russian first.
 
> > a) dependence on a case system and milking the case system for all it's worth (ie
> > using different cases for different meanings in different contexts)
>
> All this based on the -N ending???
 
I did say simplified. But -e is often used as a locative (not to mention -en) But just as in Slavic you have different
cases used with verbs and prepositions, different cases with the same preposition with different meanings. It's a very
different feeling than, say, Hungarian which also has a rich case system (but with only minimal extensions of the basic
meanings).
 
 
> > b) the co-flation (right word?) of nouns and adjectives in a way that makes the
> > sequence noun + adj. seem very much like two co-indexed nouns.
>
> ??? If I understand this correctly, this is generally done in
> Esperanto by combining two nouns in apposition, often with a '-'
> separating them. Could you give an example of what you're talking
> about?
 
I mean that a phrase like 'miajn novajn librojn' is structurally very different from other languages with both nominal
case and number (it's a bit like Spanish mis nuevas libros although Spanish doesn't have nominal, as opposed to
pronominal, case).
 
German (warning possible errors of detail)
neues Buch             new books
mein neues Buch        my new books
dieses neue Buch       these new books
 
German has adjective agreement of a kind and nominal case but uses a system whereby gender/number/case is minimally
marked, that is once is enough and 'dieses neue Buch' is a single NP (noun phrase) and the adjectives are more or less
dependent on the nouns.
 
Polish (without accents)
nowa ksiazka
moja nowa kziazka
ta nowa ksiazka
 
In Polish gender, number and case are shown completely on each lexical unit). This is much more like three seperate NP's
than one complex NP
 
 
 
 
 
> > c) general lack of sequence of tenses (I think this is a _very_ good thing, don't
> > get me wrong)
>
>
> > d) correalatives (closer to Polish in semantics and construction than the equivalents in any other language I know)
 
 
 
>
>
> > e) general noun dominance (the relative importance of verbs and nouns varies from
> > language to language and Eo, like Slavic, seems to give nouns about as much weight
> > as is possible in a language. I should also point out that there is a very slow
> > long term process going on in Slavic languages where personal inflection is being
> > lost in verbs (and in Polish comic books, an "uncivilized" character will use verb
> > infinitives with no tense but the nominal case system is intact)
>
> ??? Actually, Esperanto is structurally (particularly in the word-
> formation system) more favorable to verbs than to nouns; hence we
> see such modern tendencies as using *"brosilo" instead of "broso"
> or *"telefonilo" instead of "telefono", treating the root as an action
> root instead of an object root (which it officially is). (*) It's also the
> only language I'm familiar with (though there are certainly others) in
> which a sentence can consist only of a verb plus occasional
> modifiers ("Tondras!").
 
I thought you knew some Spanish. I rather like the Polish method for precipitation verbs at least. Pada deszcz (lt. falls
rain) pada snieg (falls snow). This is often abbreviated to 'pada' if it's obvious what type of perciptation is falling.
 
> The comic-book grammar you indicate is neither particularly Polish
> nor particularly new. Julio Baghy, if I remember correctly, more
> than once used precisely the same system in the speech of
> characters speaking a pidgin Esperanto back in the 1920s ("Ling
> veni kurson, lerni lingvon").
 
hmm just like Polish "Ling przyjsc na kurs uczyc sie jezyka. where verb inflection is dropped but nominal inflection
remains. This is my whole point. When I teach or advise newcomers to Poland in learning the language, I always tell them
that learning nominal (indlucing adj.) endings is much more important than verb endings. Verb endings are nice, but you
can have really bad verb endings and people will compliment your Polish if you learn the case system. The other way
around (good verb endings bad noun endings) won't get you far in Polish. Similarly, I see for example a lot more
questions about what case to use in Eo than what tense (which can be just as arbitrary as case after all).
 
> > f) tendency to use nominals to refer to people, the -ul- suffix seems so Polish to
> > me (Even though there' no clear equivalent, the general tendency in Polish is to
> > use nouns to describe people instead of adjectives or verbs, saying in effect
> > "Maria is a (noun)" instead of "Maria is (adjective)."
> >
> ??? The tendency in Esperanto is to say "Maria estas ric^a", not
> "Maria estas ric^ulo". The -ul- suffix is generally used when we
> want to show an actor or actee, not when we want to show an
> attribute;
 
This doesn't match my experience. I'm often a bit perturbed by the abundance of -ul- forms I run across. elegantulo,
richulo, frenezulo, maljunulo etc. etc.
 
> you'd use it pretty much where you would use "a rich
> man" in English. Here, of course, there is some difference in the
> plural -- "ric^uloj" would be used as an equivalent to "the rich",
> though "la ric^aj" is also acceptable.
>
> > Example
> > English
> > Meiling is American (adj.)
> > John's crazy. (Adj.)
> >
> The English version would, in fact, be "Meiling is an American", at
> least in my dialect. Nobody out here ever says "She's American".
> The word "American" as an adjective is primarily used as an
> epithet.
 
I say "I'm American" just the same as "She's French" (instead of 'She's a Frenchwoman') or He's Polish (instead of 'He's
a Pole'.)
 
>
>
> > Polish
> > Meiling jest Amerykanka. (noun)
> > John jest wariatem (noun, lit. crazy person)
> >
> > Esperanto
> > Meiling estas usonanino. (noun)
> > John estas frenezulicho. (noun, crazy person)
> >
> See comments on English, above, for first sentence. For the
> second (ignoring the totally non-standard suffix -ich-),
 
 
I _knew_ I couldn't get that one by you.
 
-amike
mike

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December 2000, Week 5
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