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AUXLANG  December 1999, Week 1

AUXLANG December 1999, Week 1

Subject:

Esperanto's Slavic base (was more mudslinging)

From:

maf <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:08:42 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
 
> Anta=C3=BD iom da tempo, Charles skribis:
>
> >Charles wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Esperanto is a *little* easier than a natural language such as
> > > Polish, which it so greatly resembles (Bialystok (sp.?) dialect).
> > > An interlingua is *greatly* easier to learn because it takes its
> > > roots from the languages it derives from, without mangling them.
> > > The difference in degree of difficulty is critical.
>
> Kaj Rex F. MAY respondis:
>
> >This strikes me as very odd.  I started learning Eo when I was about 1=
4,
> >and that was about 40 years ago, so I may be biased.  I find Eo
> >infinitely easier than any natlang I've ever dealt with.  If I'd come
> >across Ido or Glosa first, I'm sure the situation would have been the
> >same.
>
> Preska=C3=BD samtempe, Jeffrey HENNING respondis:
>
> >Come on, Charles, Esperanto is only a *little* easier than a natlang? =
 That
> >seems like partisan bias on your part.  Esperanto is many times easier=
 than
> >Spanish, and many more times easier than English.  Sure, it doesn't co=
mpare
> >to Occidental for ease of recognizability to WENSA-language speakers, =
but it
> >is an order of magnitude easier than any natlang.  Its fine to be 100%=
 for
> >Occidental, but you should concede an opponent's strengths.
>
> I think we can take Charles's comments about Esperanto with at least a
> grain of salt. His comment, for instance, on the "great resemblance"
> between Esperanto and Polish (Bialystok dialect or any other -- though =
in
> Zamenhof's time, the major languages in Bialystok were Yiddish and Russ=
ian;
> Polish was a minority tongue) shows a profound (though, let us hope, no=
t
> abiding) ignorance of (a) Esperanto, or (b) Polish, or (c) some combina=
tion
> thereof.
 
Okay, first I've only been in Bialystok (pronounced Bjawistok using Eo al=
phabet
with w instead of u-breve) once for less than a day but I can say that in=
 a lot of
ways it _still_ doesn't a very Polish city. I kept having the feeling of =
a Polish
city being planted on top of something else (Russian or Belarussian I sup=
pose, very
little Yiddishness left there unlike some Polish cities).
 
Second, to me, Eo _definitely_ seems like simplified re-lexified Slavic (=
not saying
that's necessarily bad). I've read Eo things be authors whose first langu=
age isn't
Slavic and it _still_ seems really Slavic to me. I think some of the reas=
ons for
this might be (in no special order).
 
a) dependence on a case system and milking the case system for all it's w=
orth (ie
using different cases for different meanings in different contexts)
b) the co-flation (right word?) of nouns and adjectives in a way that mak=
es the
sequence noun + adj. seem very much like two co-indexed nouns.
c) general lack of sequence of tenses (I think this is a _very_ good thin=
g, don't
get me wrong) d) correalatives (closer to Polish in semantics and constru=
ction than
the equivalents in any other language I know)
e) general noun dominance (the relative importance of verbs and nouns var=
ies from
language to language and Eo, like Slavic, seems to give nouns about as mu=
ch weight
as is possible in a language. I should also point out that there is a ver=
y slow
long term process going on in Slavic languages where personal inflection =
is being
lost in verbs (and in Polish comic books, an "uncivilized" character will=
 use verb
infinitives with no tense but the nominal case system is intact)
f) tendency to use nominals to refer to people, the -ul- suffix seems so =
Polish to
me (Even though there' no clear equivalent, the general tendency in Polis=
h is to
use nouns to describe people instead of adjectives or verbs, saying in ef=
fect
"Maria is a (noun)" instead of "Maria is (adjective)."
 
Example
English
Meiling is American (adj.)
John's crazy. (Adj.)
 
Polish
Meiling jest Amerykanka. (noun)
John jest wariatem (noun, lit. crazy person)
 
Esperanto
Meiling estas usonanino. (noun)
John estas frenezulicho. (noun, crazy person)
 
amikmentel
c'u i'e oo
la majko

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